User talk:Dragoondelight

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Welcome!

Hello, Dragoondelight, and welcome to the ISFDB Wiki! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will insert your name and the date. If you need help, check out the community portal, or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! CoachPaul 16:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Jack of Eagles by James Blish

Your submission to change the publication date of this pub has been placed on hold until further research can establish the correct date. Tuck's Encyclopedia dates the Galaxy publication as 1954. Worldcat dates it 1953. J. Grant Thiessen's article in The Science Fiction Collector 3 (1977) shows that it was the last in this series published in 1953, and that the next in the series (Murray Leinster's The Black Galaxy) was the first published in 1954. I believe this last source would push me towards changing the date to 1953. Maybe Tuck's info led him to believe it may have been printed late in 1953 and not available until after the beginning of the year. Do you have any source that states that this softcover edition was published in 1952, the same year as the Greenberg hardcover edition? I'll hold your submission until I hear back from you, or if any other editors of the database can help solve the mystery. Thanks. MHHutchins 22:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's a list of Galaxy novels on Wikipedia[1] and a little bit of history. It would appear the date is 1953. We also seem to be missing the first seven novels unless there under a different publishers name.Kraang 00:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Found the missing novels, there under "World Editions, Inc."Kraang 00:36, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I have no sign that it was published in 1952. I found one other showing 1953, that I have now lost but discarded it because it was a simple list that stated it, but showed no support. Sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 00:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
I'll reject the submission and change the date to 1953, which seems to be the date of the majority of sources. Thanks. MHHutchins 02:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The Devouring Fire

I have placed your edit on hold. There are a couple of issues I want to make sure I understand.

  • You changed the binding from "pb" to "digest". The ISFDB generally uses "digest" only for magazines. Standard mass-market paperbacks are listed as "pb", larger sized "trade" paperbacks as "tp", and hard-covered or "cloth-bound" books as "hc". (see Help:Screen:EditPub, the section on "Pub Format" for more details). Was this publication a book, or a magazine?
  • You listed the cover artist as "R.T.". I assume that is how the artist was credited. Is there a credit to the artist's full name (or pen name) as well? Is there a clue to the artist's actual name? If so, you might want to list it in the notes section.
  • Your notes include "Art work is very exceptional". It is probably better not to include this kind of statement of opinion, as the ISFDB is generally confined to listing factual data.

It looks to me as if this is the same book described in OCLC record 55536835, does that look correct to you?

Please respond here to these issues, when you have a chance. -DES Talk 23:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry my reply is in the next. --Dragoondelight 01:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
responses moved from next section for clarity -DES Talk 20:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I am defining digest as a Reader's Digest size, not book sized nor trade paperback. It contains two staples with the cover page glued to the pack. The binding is not similar to paperback. I say digest to keep people alert to what they would see. It is a definition that pertains mostly to the binding. Though the binding seem the staples make it look just like a slightly smaller Reader's digest. You can change it and it will make the buyer of one surprised to find the anomaly. I am trying to be correct it what I see. Digest is used because it fits. Is it a book or a magazine. It is a magazine more than a book in it's appearance. R.T. is located above the By===Vargo Statten line on the cover. There is no crediting or I would have so stated. I have seen a lot of art and would never drop a message line to anyone about it's quality. This work, which may not be exceptional for the series, is exceptional for it's powerful appeal. I was hesitant to say anything, I have seen almost anything. This is exceptional it gave me more than a pause to look at. This artist should be famous or he died very early. I doubt I will ever comment again on a book's artwork, but I do not feel that a picture can convey it's aura. I am not noted for buying art, I own none, but I would buy this in a larger size. Sorry to offend. OCLC record 55536835 appears to be the same. If you mean is that my copy, it is not. I got mine through ABE weeks ago. I overpaid, I thought, so that I might have at least one Vargo Staten to read. I still have not read it. I still am enjoying looking at it. It may be a poor read, but it's cover will always make up for it. Apologies on this message system use. I have never seen it's like before. I will now hit the tildes and then enter. Hopefully, this will exist for your perusal. --Dragoondelight 01:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
As you can see this was for the Devouring Fire. The comment on digest still applies. --Dragoondelight 01:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Ah I now see what you had in mind, and i quite agree that the user needs to be somehow told that these are not standard paperbacks. The problem is that the term "digest" won't do that, because we have ben using that term for standard magazines printed in a size of about 7 in x 4.5 in to 8.25 in x 5.125 in. These are usually perfect-bound, not stapled. A user who expects this format is going to be at elast as suprised as one who expects a standard mass-market pb. I will raise the question on our Rules and standards discussions page.
For your information OCLC is an online library collections catalog, showing listings for many of the works held by each of its many libraries. it is used for doing inter-library loans, for example. We have a page about how to access it, and its virtues and flaws for our purposes at Help:Using Worldcat data ("Worldcat" is the database, within the OCLC system, that holds information about most ordinary books, including pretty much all fictional works.) -DES Talk 17:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps if you show that they are operating under a paradigm that is incorrect it will help. The first example would be the standard magazine printed in digest format with multiple stories. The next step was the use of full length novel with some old material, such as editorials, reviews and letters to the editor. This becomes less as more space is needed by larger novels. You then evolve to Galaxy Science Fiction Novel model which no longer pretends at other elements of a magazine, but retains the digest size and softcover, not heavy paper front page usually with the staple crimped front to back as opposed to the more usual Magazine center fold staple style. The paperback was current I believe before WWII and was liked by those who could tuck into a small space and not destroy it. It was used by many American troops, and maybe not at all by the British. There are even examples of stories even reduced further than we see today. The digest style was used more in Britain, Europe and American cities where the newstands could readily display them. The size has a certain advantage in that it was harder to steal and hide. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 19:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I think it unlikely that we will adopt the term "digest" for this kind of thing, however historically accurate. For the matter of that, the original meaning of both "Mass-market" and "Trade" paperbacks no longer matches current realities and usage. But we do need a term to distinguish the different formats.
Oh, a minor point. it is usual to indent each level of response in a wiki-thread by adding an extra colon at the start of each paragraph. See Help:Editing for more detail. -DES Talk 20:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I have approved your edits, after discussion with others on the use of "digest" in this case. I then made some further changes to the pub to calrify the meaning of "digest" for any user. The result is here. Please check that i haven't distorted or misundersttof your commetns on digest bindings when you have a chance. Thanks. -DES Talk 20:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
You did a real good job on straightening my mess. I verified it. I noticed that the OCLU link seemed to have been updated. Am I correct that I can use digest for this type of particular stories? Will you continue as my editor in chief? I botched 'World in a Test Tube' so badly that I never even received my just reprimand. I know it was seen because the Science Fiction Fortnightly #8 was changed from author to editor. Problem is that it was not the only problem. The story was complete and not a serial. Oh well, I apologize for the trouble but trust we can take comfort that a significant element of the publishing history is acknowledged. I especially notice the picture of the cover. I still see it's magic and the picture almost has enough depth and size. It is much like a Picasso with a great deal of inner depth. I digress again. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 00:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
I am glad to have been of assistance, The various moderators (who are also volunteers, and most of whom started as editors just like yourself -- I did not long ago) when working on the system, look through the list of submitted but unapproved edits, and tend to start with the oldest, and deal with as many as they choose, leaving the rest (if any) for the next mod to come along. I see that another mod has commented on World in a Test Tube in the section on Science Fiction Fortnightly, lower on the page. As you will see in Rules and standards discussions#"Digest" sized books the current feeling seems to be to allow "digest" as the binding type for this sort of work, so go ahead. We may, or may not, chose an abbreviation later; we probably will update the help, clarifying just what we mean by "Digest". Please feel free to join this discussion and give us the benefit of your views and experience.
I added the OCLC (not OCLU) link -- the practice there is being discussed, and may change.
For good but somewhat complex reasons, the ISFDB uses the "Serial" type for all novels published in a magazine, even when they are published complete in a single issue, although in that case we normally add "(Complete Novel)" to the title. The customs, conventions, and quirks of the ISFDB are a bit complicated, but I learned them all in a few months, most of them in a few weeks, and i am sure you will do so also. Most of them have reasons behind them, but many are also subject to change when there is consensus on a better way, such as with the "digest" binding. Thanks for your contributions and do please keep on. -DES Talk 15:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Encounter in Space

Again, please do not use "digest" unless this is a magazine. Is it?

Otherwise this looks fine to me. -DES Talk 23:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I have approved your edits, after discussion with others on the use of "digest" in this case. I then made some further changes to the pub to calrify the meaning of "digest" for any user. The result is here. Please check that i haven't distorted or misundersttof your commetns on digest bindings when you have a chance. Thanks. -DES Talk 20:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, your notes and the iamge show that the author's name on the cover was "H.K. Bulmer". WQas the author listed on the title page as "Kenneth Bulmer", or did you simply know that to be the corect name from another source? -DES Talk 20:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I belong to a Yahoo group which was in contact with Ken until his death and has limited contact with the surviving family. As I understand it his birth name was Henry Kenneth Bulmer. He used H.K. Bulmer when he started writing at sixteen with his lifelong friend A.V. Clarke (also deceased). This was an early one, and hence the H.K. Bulmer. He hid his persona behind many names, some of his work is not properly known. His Alan Burt Akers was a secret of Donald Wolheim for quite a period, only whispered in tight circles that Ken Bulmer was the author. The Alan Burt Akers as author faded into the main character Dray Prescot as author. It is only with the Omnibus printings that he has become credited in print for the Dray Prescot or Kregen series. I did not find out the truth until the late 1990's. I found out that he was a favorite as Kenneth Bulmer and the previous. When I heard that his estate is somewhat imperiled I started trying to find his older work through ABE and Fantastic Fiction. He may have not have had the monumental work, but he had quite a career in science fiction circles. I verified your edit. A very good job. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 01:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
If, as I understand you to state, "H.K. Bulmer" was the author's name listed in the actual publication, and "Kenneth Bulmer" nowhere appeared in that publication, then we would want the pub record to show "H.K. Bulmer", so as to record the actual state of the pub. We would also want to record the fact that these two names (and various others) represent a single person, and what the source(s) for this information is/are. This might best be done on the author's wiki-page Author:H.K. Bulmer or Author:Kenneth Bulmer or both. Then we would want to decide which of the various names this author used the ISFDB is going to regard as "canonical". That is generally the name by which the author is best known, and need not be the author's legal name: For example, we use Hal Clement, not "Harry C. Stubbs"; we use Murray Leinster, not Will F. Jenkins or Will Jenkins; we use Mark Twain, not "Samuel Langhorne Clemens".
Once a canonical name is settled (and this must be done carefully, as the software does not currently allow changing this once it is set) we mare the other names as pseudonyms of that name, and we record "variant titles" of works published under pseudonyms so that they show up on the biblio page of the canonical name. Look at Henry Kuttner to see the result for an author who wrote much of his work under a wide variety of other names.
So that we can start this process for Mr Bulmer, please do clarify whether the pub of Encounter in Space showed "H. K." or "Kenneth" on the title page, and if it showed any other forms elsewhere. Thank you again. -DES Talk 15:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Kenneth is not written at all on the book 'Encounter in Space". It is only H.K. Bulmer. People knew him as Ken on a personal basis. The reprint editions of the Dray Prescot series, which are approved by the family, state Kenneth Bulmer. In the specific it states Kenneth Bulmer writing as Alan Burt Akers (this is not Encounter in Space). I think most people knew him best as Kenneth Bulmer, as a true name, from his numerous Ace editions under that name. Fantastic Fiction has a list that is somewhat different from ISFDB. I noticed the same on John Russell Fearn. Much of Kenneth Bulmer's work has not been reprinted. Currently only the Dray Prescott series is being reprinted. How did I get deep black printing on this message? Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 16:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, that information is very helpful. You got the deep black (which i have corrected, since you did not intend it) by starting the paragraph with four semi-colons (;) rather than four colons (:), see Help:List (the part on "Definition lists") to see how this was designed to be used. -DES Talk 16:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The Stars are Ours

You say in your notes "Australian reprint of the Panther edition", but you have edited by changing the existing record, which would wipe out the limited info we have on the London panther edition. In such cases you will want to use the "clone this publication" tool or the "add a publication to this title" tool. Each of these creates an additional publication record under the existing title record, so they are best used when you are entering information about a copy/edition/publication that is different from the one we have on record, as opposed to merely adding or correcting data about the exact same publication we already have on file.

Note that OCLC lists a 1953 panther edition and a possibly 1960 Atlas Publications (Melbourne) edition, does either look like your copy?

I am going to reject this one, but use the information in it to add a new publication. Here is the result, please check if I have gotten the information correct. -DES Talk 23:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I will remember the cloning and agree. Your new entry fits mine and the Australian 1960. I am unfamiliar with OCLU, but the 1953 panther page statistics should be an exact match for the Australian. I think they are in error. I know this irritates, but my copy is a perfect example of a digest not a paperpack. The staples are actually alternately protruding in the upper top side and indented in the lower one. I know it is hard to change an idea, but this looks more magazine than paperback and if you had wanted a paperback or tradeback you would be disappointed. I have only few left that I would so describe, but if it pleases I will make it a note instead. The Australian cover is not as well done.
Sorry for the bother, it is my second day, and the best way to do things appears to take me awhile. I used to input maintenance records and learned to try to get every erg I could out of what is there. I really try to find anything useful at all. Thanks, --Dragoondelight 01:26, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Not a bother, new contributors are very welcome, and this is a rather complex system that takes time to learn. Take a look at User talk:DESiegel60 if you want to see some of the problems I had in learning how to enter things here. On Digests see my comments above. Ditto on OCLC. It is certainly possible that the records we have for the 1953 panther are in error, since we don't have a primary verification (someone who had an actual copy and checked against that). On the other hand, it is amazing how publishers make trivial changes seemingly for no good reason when doing a reprint. -DES Talk 17:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Sojarr of Titan

I have approved this, but made some further changes. The result is here. It looks to me as if OCLC record 2232065 is for the first printing of this edition, while OCLC record 220438715 just might be for a later edition. I am not sure enough to create the later edition, however. Please make sure that I have not messed up any of your content. -DES Talk 23:36, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I wonder about the OCLU entry, if they are saying crestwood publications copyright it in 1941, then I must wonder if they trsnsposed the Better Publicatins copyright 1941 on my copy with the previous page bottom block entry of Crestwood Publications, Inc. Better Pulications produced the Startling Stories 1941 for $0.15 in 1941. A Crestwood edition of 1941 should be the same cost. It also has 10 less pages.
Though this one is of digest size, I can not detect any stapling. The binding looks to be a high pressure crimp that extended one quarter inch onto the front cover. It made the spine angular. It is interesting that the page edges are blue in all exposed directions. I will concede that except for the digest sizing, it can more easily fit paperback or more aptly tradepaperback. I will verify it. Thanks and sorry for the problems.--Dragoondelight 01:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
No need to apologize, we all want to get the facts correct. It may be that Crestwood and Better had some sort of arrangement, so that a 1941 edition carried the Crestwood name. It may be that Ctestwood owned Better -- OCLC all too often notes the parent company, if listed in the book, rather than the imprint. It is often hard to be sure about such things until an actual copy is in hand. -DES Talk 17:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

ABE & other

Here is an ABE bookseller example, others are available under Vargo Statten http://tinyurl.com/66kvaj R.T. is Ron Turner, noted British cover artist. Taken from ABE sellers. The cover paper was more like an artist specialty paper than any I have run across. It must have cost a lot more to use. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 19:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Digest size

I have asked for other opnions in the thread Rules and standards discussions#"Digest" sized books. Please feel free to give your views there. I have quoted some of your comments above, but if there is more to say, please share your knowledge with us. -DES Talk 21:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Amazon URLs

When you see an amazon URL like this one: "http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SpfZgt-DL._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg" You will usually find that a truncated version such as "http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SpfZgt-DL.jpg" will produce the same cover art without the "search inside" logo, and without the size restrictions forced by the longer URL. the trick is to find a string like "._SL500_" and remove everything between the period and the "jpg" The part between the underscores codes for rendering size, and some of the later parts code for the "search inside" logo. This truncation almost always works, but one must check the resulting URL in a browser, because sometimes it doesn't. I hope this is helpful. -DES Talk 20:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Acknowledged and will give it a try. Thanks,Harry. --Dragoondelight 22:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I find the "_AA240_" and "_SL500_" strings for images tend to be from the default displayed image and the "_SS500_" comes from the "See Larger Image" version, but after trimming they tend to come out the same. I find it easier to work from the larger image usually though. One useful trick if there's a long "Search inside" string is to see if it has a NON-Search inside version on one of the other English-language Amazon sites - e.g. a book on the Amazon.com site with it may not yet have such on the Amazon.co.uk site. BLongley 23:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I have found that I can almost always truncate the long "Search inside" URL to get a useful image without the "Search inside" logo, as above. But a check of the other amazon sites can sometimes produce a better image, and is good when truncation does not seem to work, IMO. -DES Talk 15:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Science Fiction Fortnightly, #8 (April 15) 1951

There's more than a few missteps in your submission to edit this pub. Being a new editor, you can't be blamed for not knowing some of the more arcane rules and standards that we use here at the ISFDB. So what follows is a closer look at each of the changes that you wanted to be made in the record:

  1. You want to add the title "editor" after the author's name. In the case of anthologies and periodicals, the editor is considered the "author" of the work (book or magazine), and each of the contents have their individual authors. The field for names can not contain a title or role (unless that happens to be the author's canonical name (e.g. "Lord Dunsany")
  2. You state in the notes that the author of the novel "The World in a Test Tube" is credited as "H. J. Campbell" throughout the publication. Good. That's a great catch, because our record shows "Herbert J. Campbell" as the author, and we'll have to change that.
  3. You want to change the author of "Star-Gazing" from "Anonymous" to "L. G. Holmes as writer of the editorial". Again, we have to have what is exactly printed in the publication. Is the piece credited on the first page or at the end of the piece? If not, is it credited in the TOC? If the answer is no, then we should change the author of this piece to "uncredited". If it's credited to "L. G. Holmes" we'll change it to that. But your edit would have created a record for an entirely new author named "L. G. Holmes as writer of the editorial". The database records exactly what we place into the field.
  4. You want to change "The World in a Test Tube" from a SERIAL to a NOVEL. It may sound counter-intuitive, but when a complete novel is printed in one issue of a magazine, we type it as a serial with the subtitle (Complete Novel). Check out Herbert Campbell's summary page to see why this strange standard makes sense.
  5. Page numbers should be the page on which the piece begins. Don't include the last page. It would be impossible to record all the pages of particular piece in some magazine publications when the story is broken up over several pages.
  6. You added four new content entries
    1. "Projectiles-letters to the editor" Is this exactly how the column is titled in the magazine? Under the author of this piece you give "4 various reply L. G. Holmes editor". Again, this would create a strange author name! Perhaps the best solution here is simple "Various". You give the TYPE of this piece as EDITOR. It should be ESSAY. EDITOR is an unusual type that requires special handling when used in magazines. It's only in the pull-down menu so that we can create an EDITOR when the publication was created without one being created. (Something we haven't had to do since the system was changed to do it automatically.)
    2. Entry for "Quiz" looks good except for the page range. Only provide the first page on which the piece appears.
    3. "Speaking of Atoms-no. 3 in a series on Atomic Theory" Is this the exact title for the piece? Author "not credited possibly in previous digest" should just simply be "uncredited".
    4. "Science News" The author "uncredited science blurbs (total of 5) 1951-00-00" should be "uncredited" You can place any further information in the note field of the publication or in the title record of the individual piece. You give the type as NONFICTION. This should not be used as the TYPE for any short work within a larger publication. The reason it's in the pull-down menu as a choice is when you're editing an omnibus which contains a previously published complete work of nonfiction along with several other works. For example see this omnibus by Asimov and note that it contains an introduction (ESSAY) and three works that had previously been published (two NOVELs and a COLLECTION). The system could have easily handled a NONFICTION work if perhaps one of his science books had also been included in the omnibus. In this case "Science News" should be typed as ESSAY.
  7. Your last entry was under "Book Reviews". This should only be used to record individual titles that are being reviewed. Title of work, author of work and author of review must be recorded in each entry. If you choose not to record each of the titles under review, you can create an ESSAY (under the contents entry fields) with the title "Book Reviews", author as "Various" (unless only one person wrote the reviews, in which case you'd enter his/her name.) Don't use the book review entry fields unless you plan on entering each title.

After all that I hope I haven't scared you away! If you'd like to resubmit your updates to the pub, please do so. Or if you'd like me to do it based on the info that you've give in the original submission, I'll gladly do it for you.

Please be assured that nobody comes to this site knowing more than a small portion of what they'll learn within the first month of editing. You can only learn by submitting. When you get a chance read the help pages (stop before your eyes fall out, cause there's a lot there!) Please don't hesitate to ask if there's anything here that I've been unclear about. Thanks for contributing. MHHutchins 03:03, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I crossed your wires and resubmitted the data before I saw this. I tried to correct some of the errors that had been pointed out in other cases. I changed it to novel, but I understand the complete story methodology from the above commentary. I actually appreciate people checking this because I prefer it be as accurate as possible. Please, check it again and get me straight. Is digest now acceptable? I have been informed to check with verifiers, but I was stumped as what to do to fix this one. I assumed it got lost. The author thing threw me till I saw it showed editor on the previous page. I wondered at included technical editor H.J. Campbell but put it in the notes. I also included the alpha bet soup that was shown after the technical editor and name. Hopefully, I will get in sync soon. I also could not find any indication of the author's initials or name and noted it. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 15:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Under the Moons of Mars by Moskowitz General Plan

Under the Moons of Mars Problems. Two discriptions in ISFDB to merge or not to merge Under the Moons of Mars go to same page. That page is incorrect. Should have shown as a serial under ALL-Story Magazine. First problem is that the Barsoom series and no.1 indicator should lead to the All-Story Magazine serial. Second problem is the introduction commentary (not the preface) to the story 'Under the Moons of Mars' says that the prologue to the story from All-Story is omitted as is the first two chapters telling of John Carter's return from the civil war. This makes it not the same as the All-Story version. Moskowitz then finishes with the entirety can be found under the title of 'A Princess of Mars'. There is no entry for All-Story Magazine or All-Story Weekly Adding zest LuLu has this for Under the Mons of Mars, by ERB, paperback & hardcover. http://www.lulu.com/content/187863 http://www.lulu.com/content/187865

Darkness and Dawn from Moskowitz, One copy goes to the Afterglow (complete novel) and the other goes to Darkness and Dawn (complete novel). It should go to the The Cavalier and The Scrap Book, January (undated)-January 20, 1912 as the material came directly from there and not from later editions. Moskowitz says in is introductory statement pg54, 'Darkness and Dawn, and a unit of that novel, virtually complete in itself, follows.' 'This segment starts' and continues description. End line is 'The full story is a classic, three novels in length, creating a memorable trilogy.' I take this as a cut version of the original story and should not lead directly to the others. Both versions go to a Darkness and Dawn Omnibus of 672 pages. That omnibus may have gotten it's content from almost any source, but probably from the Cavalry and Scrap book or author directly. The trilogy omnibus is available at Lulu, golden age pulps is nonspecific, http://www.lulu.com/content/101404 I question if the 1914 omnibus by Small Maynard is the first source for the reprint. The Cavalier and The Scrapbook Book has no entry. I am guessing it was a magazine. Moskowitz says all material came from the orginal source.

When we record that an anthology contains a work (either a novel or a work of short fiction) the link is to the title record for that work, which shows all publications that we have under that title record. If there is a serial by the same title, that will show also. There is a known bug with serial linking when the serial has a different title, it is high on the developer's priority list, I understand. If it is known that a work has been significantly revised, it is possible to create a second title record with a tile like "Sample Story (revised 1987)" or "Example Novel (Expanded 2001)", and then use tha tin the anthology if proper.
Note that we generally do not create magazine records for geenral fiction magazines just to record the inital printing of a single work, insted we list this in the notes of the title record, or of an early publication record 9the first, if possible) -DES Talk 15:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Polaris of the Snows came from All-Story Weekly, December 18, 1915-January 1, 1916 according to Moskowitz and is from this original material. There is no special editing mentioned, but he says 'episodes presented'. I have the Lulu reprint trilogy version(Polaris of the Snows). http://www.lulu.com/content/2237091 That states for Polaris - of the Snows (the story not trilogy) it came from All-Story Weekly (December 18 & 25, 1915 and Jan 1, 1916). I checked the first chapter and fifth chapters. It starts and ends the same. Therefore the Moskowitz version is Polaris of the Snows, chapter 1 through five only. I was going to enter this (the reprint trilogy) before Moskowitz but I did not because of the All-Story Weekly is not entered. Both Moskowitz entries went to Polaris - of the Snows, series Polaris Janes dated 1915. classed as shortfiction. I saw no clear connection. It is possible that it ia taken from the Famous Fantastic Mysteries, July 1947 entry. I can find no Polaris Janes reference in either book I have. That does not mean it was not written that way in All-Star Weekly. In any case both connection are invalid.

As I mentioned above, we would not be likely to create an entry for an issue of All-Story Weekly, insted this inital publ;ication would best be listed in the notes field for the title record of Polaris of the Snows. A second title of "Polaris of the Snows (excerpt)" should probably be created for the verasion that has only chapters 1-5. -DES Talk 15:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Palos of the Dog Star Pack by J.U. Giesy came from All All-Story Weekly, July 13-August 10, 1918) using original material according to Moskowitz. Both lead backs go to the same spot where there is an entry for the All-Story as a note. This lead is not good for Moskowitz. From this statement I assume this a parttial copy of the original. Last sentence of introductory statement. 'The early chapters of Plaos of the Dog Star Pack presented here,' and talks about the writers writing. Needs All-Story Weekly entry. Connections need to be broken and realigned.

This is exactly the way i would expect such a publication to be handled. if it appears that Under the Moons of Mars did not include the entire work (as the 1965 avalon edition did),than an alternate title record "Palos of the Dog Star Pack (excerpt)" should be created, but the current entry for Palos of the Dog Star Pack looks fine unless we know of such an abridgement or excerpting. -DES Talk 15:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Friend Island by Francis Stevens (All-Story Weekly, Septemeber 7, 1918). Need to enter an All-Story Weekly tab. I can find no lead. There is luck here. Swfritter verified Fantastic Novels Magazine, Septemeber 1950. Glancing says that it is approximately 8 pages. The copy in Moskowitz starts 'It was upon' and goes 11 pages (really 10) and ends with 'I found it easy to believe her story'. The story is so short and Moskowitz gave no clue to editing that I am inclined to think it is complete from All-Story Weekly. The story has a poetic, haunt to it that makes me doubt an edit.

The Moon Pool by A. Merritt (All-Story Weekly, June 22, 1918). obviously again This statement from Moskowitz. 'The long novelette The Moon Pool is reprinted in full here,' Direct connection and it's entirety from All-Story. Both links at Moskowitz lead to the same point with a 1918 novel description. The Walter Godwin series. Stands to reason that this link needs rework to All-Story.

There should probably be a note in our record of The Moon Pool about the 1918 publication, but i doubt if a publication record for the All-Story appearence sould be created. But even if it were, it would be simply one more publication (albiet the first) and the links should still lead to the title record. However, the title date should be changed to 1918. -DES Talk 15:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The Girl in the Golden Atom by Ray Cummings, All-Story Weekly, March 15, 1919. No statement by Moskowitz of cutting, editing or similar. I think it is complete also. Both links go back to the same point. It does not go to All-Story.

Same situation as above. To enter a record for the All-Story publication, at the very least you wopuld need to determine the issue date and who the editor was. It would also leave an incompelte magazine record. It could be done, but usually isn't. -DES Talk 15:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The Mad Planet by Murray Leinster, The Argosy June 12, 1920. Both links go to the same item with a note that the story published on June 10, 1920. What is the relationship to Forgotten Planet. My copy of Forgotten Planet wuuld appear to be an expansion or fix-up. It is definitely not a chapter by chapter connection. Need an Argosy link.

The Blind Spot by Austin Hall and Homer Eon Flint, Argosy All-Story Weekly May 14-June 18, 1921. Note Moskowitz says birth name is Flindt. Moskowitz says this is the first 10,000 words. It was written by Hall, but Flint supposedly supplied medical and philosophical aspects. Both links go to the same item. That item needs the Argosy All-Story Weekly connection.

I'm not sure what you mean by "both links", but the title record is the proper destination for the link in the anthology record. Additional publications can always be added. According to Damon Knight's review in In Search of Wonder Flint wrote several chapters of this work (of which Knight was not very fond). Moskowitz has been know to be highly inaccurate on factual details, adn i would not change an author's name based on his comments without another source. His brief wikipedia article does not mention any change of name, but Author:Homer Eon Flint does, quoting a more relaible source. -DES Talk 15:34, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

A History of "The Scientific Romance" in the Munsey Magazines, 1912-1920. It is unique to the book. It is 142 pages split into 19 segments. Each segment gives a good account of the publishing and everything else of that time period. It is in depth and interesting. My personal inclination is to list each of the 19 separate titles to allow people to discover what has been written by Moskowitz on each subdivision. I think it should be treated as 19 topics which could be read to suit the reader's taste. I do not know if this allowed, but it opens it up to more interest than the general title.

It would be possible to record this as 19 essays. Does each have a title, printed in the book? In any case, would this help the user or simply overwhelm the rest of the anthology? But thast is a judgement call, there is no rule on the matter. -DES Talk 15:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The preface is a broad outline of what Moskowitz intended.

Overall needs. Merge the two Under the Moons of Mars entries. The only one not completely the same is Darkness and Dawn which had one go to AFterglow and the other to Dark is the Dawn. Of course delete would work just as well as most( I think all) need to be redone.

Two choices after that. 1) enter the data of the book. or 2) create All-Story Magazine, The Cavalier and The Scrap Book, All-Story Weekly, The Argosy and Argosy All-Story weekly.

as sugggested above, i would tend to take choice 1, entering further source data in notes as needed. -DES Talk 20:32, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

What is a designer on credit sheet? Is that the same as artist?

Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 13:26, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

A "designer" might be a cover designer (creates layout, and may originate art concept), or a book designer (handles typface selection and various other details of the appearence of the book as a whole). Neither is a cover artist. I would just quote the credit line, whatever it says, in the notes. -DES Talk 20:32, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Did I answer your merge question correctly in the following post, or did I miss your intent?CoachPaul 14:46, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I will do as suggested below, then enter correct data in the remaining as suggested by DES. The same with the designer as a note. I'll do so a little later. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 21:26, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

To Merge or Not to Merge

In the case of Under the Moons of Mars, they appear to point to the same record, but in truth they point to two different records. The uppermost link points to Publication:NDRMNMARS1970, while the lower link points to Publication:NDRTFMRSD51970. You can easily see this, once you know where to look, in either the Bibliographic Comments above the Contents section, or in the URL if your browser is currently set up to show it. In this case, if the two records are otherwise identical, I would just delete the second record (NDRTFMRSD51970) and not worry about a merge. When you use the Delete This Pub link under Editing Tools, just make sure that you put down in the reason for deletion that it is an exact duplicate of another record and therefore not needed.CoachPaul 14:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that one of these records can safely be deleted, provided we can determine whether the story included was "The Afterglow" or "Darkness and Dawn" (which we have listed as different works in the same series). Unless there actually were two different edition one with one of thes, and one with the other, whcih seems unlikely. -DES Talk 15:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Are you working from the physical book, here? -DES Talk 15:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
This is a physical book, I have even checked the intro to each story to verify what Moskowitz did or did not due to the story. Neither 'Afterglow' or 'Darness and Dawn' are correct. Afterglow is worse as it was a change of content and title. The copyrights in every one of the novel entries predate the computer links to dates and sources as it is displayed now. When I add the proper data, from the copy I have, then I believe the computer will create the proper connection. Either the computer will correct the previous mistakes or not. I wrote it out so that I could check and try to get it to show properly. I think the wording 'Exact Duplicate' is my problem. The NOR versions are the same except for 'Afterglow' or 'Darkness at Dawn' links. When I put the correct data in, to verify an actual copy, then all the links should change to the NEW original. If the DB does that, then I only have to check that they are then correct. NDRMNMARS1970, which shows 'Afterglow' which is never noted in Moskowitz. I will delete the other and update the above with the verified data. Then we will see. I will do it tonight and check reactions tomorrow. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 21:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I take it that the physical book infront of you has a section/story with the title "Afterglow" that is an excerpt from the full novel of that name? Is there any significant chance that there was another holt edition with "Darkness and Dawn" instead? If not the near-duplicte record can be deleted, if there is a reasonable chance than it should be retained. In any case, you should make sure that the pub record for the book you have shows the actual titles in the physical books, then we can worry about varients and linkages. Any title in your book which is known to be only a part of a longer work by the same titel (say the fist few chapters) should get a title of "Fake Story (excerpt)" or "Fake Story (Chapters III - XV)" or something of the sort.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the computer "automatically fixing the links". If you add another pub to a title used in this anthology, that pub will show up on that work's title record, whcih is what anthology content entries link to. If you change the contents record, the link wiull be to whatever title you have speciried. If a new pub is created with the same title as an existing pub, unless the clone or "add a pub" tool is used, the titles must be mereged manually, this happens a lot with short fiction, and a fair amout with novels.
When the first publication of a work that is entered is in fact a reprint, often a later editor must edit the title record and correct the date to the first publication date. Once that is done the correct date will show up in every collection/anthology/omnibus publication that links to the title, but simply adding an earlier pub record will not make this change automatifcally.
I hope all this is helpful to you. -DES Talk 21:39, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Warlord of Antares

I approved your edit, but merged it with our other title record for Warlord of Antares. Note that your pub record shows ISBN: 9-88677-269-9 which is not a valid ISBN. The other pub record shows 9-88677-269-9, which is valid. was the invalid iSBN on the publication, or was it an entry error? Also it is helpful to check if we already have a record for a title, in which case you can use "clone" or "add a new publication", whcih avoids the neeed to merge. -DES Talk 16:56, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

First I was copying and should have taken the ISBN 0-88677-269-9 from the backpage of the novel. Actually the ISBN beginning with nine is impossible unless this was somehow applied to the ISBN O I just used. There should not be two separate ISBNs because there was only one book ever printed. Merging was a question, but the reason they had two entries for the identical title is their alteration of Alan Burk Akers and Dray Prescot and then DP ABA. They were trying to make a tie between the pseudonym used in the first novels of the series and the later one. I thought that was done better when checking the series connection. You see in this novel specifically there is no crediting of Alan Burt Akers. By doing it the way they did, they are suggesting that there is an alternate version. This was DAW LAST and ONLY printing, with nothing that I have not noted. I know that sounds awfully sure, but I checked with others. This issue was very hard to find and it's very limited printing makes it get more expensive each year. The reason I did not use clone, I looked, was that the Alan Burt Akers name was never used in the only printing of this book. There are no other versions, than the one I started fresh and therefore there can be no connection, due to it's absence, with the ABA DP entry. It never existed and can never be verified. Sorry, I just am trying to say it to make sure I am understood. The problem is data error versus verification. So the link back to ABA DP can not rationally exist. I know it was put there, probably by a DP series fan, to ensure that people understood the connection. They did not realize that the created a document which will always be unverifiable. The reason I am being so sticky is as I work back to the first in the series this mistake repeats. The DB has been bloated with a spurious, though understandable, double entry scheme. New thought, Is there anyway to properly credit the glossary. The glossary was added in the early issues every so many issues and gave new names, places, etc for the fans. In this issue it was done by a living person other than Kenneth Bulmer. I talked to him and others confirmed his identity this afternoon. The glossary is a huge fan favorite and those issues with them are highly treasured by fans and they look for it's appearance. Awaiting your reply, before changing it again. Thanks, Harry--Dragoondelight 20:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
This kind of thing can be handled with variant titles, or in some cases by simply deleting the incorrect entry. We would want a variant in any case to link to the canonical name (Kenneth Bulmer), but maybe not to the Dray Prescott name if it never appeared with that name on the title page (as some in the series did). we already have the series listing to link it that way.
The glossary can be entered as an essay in any pub where it appeared. (I have done this with some of the 'Wheel of Time" books, for example) If identical versions of the glossary appeared in multiple pubs, they should ideally be merged after entry. if different versions appeared, there should be some parenthetical expression to distinguish them, perhaps the title of the volume in which a given version first appeared. If the author of the glossary is known, but is not credited in the book, the author should be listed, with a note indicating that there is no credit in the volume, and how the name is known.
To enter an essay in a novel pub (which also includes things like intros and afterwords) you need to wait until the in ital pub has been approved, then edit the pub record and click "add title" in the content section. Then it acts much like a collection or anthology. -DES Talk 21:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I corrected the ISBN with the number used on the book bp. I put a page number on the story and added the glossary as an essay with page number. I deleted my note entries as they are now redundant. Added glossary note on location of other series glossaries. Here is the one that might give you pause. I deleted the Alan Burt Akers entry as author as that pseudonym was not credited or mentioned on the data pages. Again DAW printed no version, but this one. This means the Publications entry with Alan Burt Akers and Dray Prescott is spurious. That publications does not exist anywhere. I have no way to prove that, but I cross my heart on it. There is only one DAW publication edition. The one we are working on. The new DAW management dumped the series and only printed this one edition due to fan pressure. No publications in the series till just recently Mushroom Books printed 4 omnibuses of the first 14 volumes. So far they have not printed others, though they have ebook published series numbers 38 through 43. The omnibuses can be found at Amazon, including one hc for the first 5. I have found no mention elsewhere except at Mushroom Books. Those specifically credit Kenneth Bulmer writing as Alan Burt Akers for those volumes. This was approved by the Bulmer estate vice Pamela Buckmeister(may be mispelled). Bulmer's divorced wife who manages it for her and the family. Ken died in 2005. The series fans, I am one, are a rabid group who pushed to get Mushroom to go this far. I misspoke slightly, one other publisher tried before Mushroom in the nineties to publish volumes after 37 in ebook. Savanti Press did not was not very successful. I know the owner/editor printed 3 demonstration copies of one of the texts after 37 on one of the very early print on demand machines. They were not sold, but he still has his prized one. That is a collector's item. Would it or should it be entered in the database? Sorry, too much information for other than a fan. I gave it because it has bearing on the need to clean up the ISFDB entries of the series publications. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 21:41, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
There are secondary source that list all the DAW puiblications, which is a pretty good check when it seems that a pub never existed. Also, a search of OCLC and other online library catalogs if it doesn';t turn up the book in question, can be good evidence that a pub is spurious. So there are ways to "prove" such negatives. -DES Talk 22:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Please have a look at the title record now. It displays 'Authors: and Dray Prescot' - the empty author1 seems to be causing this. BLongley 17:33, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for calling that to my attention. I have fixed it. You are correct as to the cause, when you blanked author1 the software, seeing a non-empty author2, tried to display a work with two authors. In future if you remove an author from the list of authors of a work, move an author up so that there is no gap in the list of authors. Note that the order in which the authors are listed does not matter, the display may reorder them no matter which one is lated first at entry time. Currently the ISFDB does not preserve the order in a list of authors. -DES Talk 19:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I will try a couple more and hopefully do better. If I understand you correctly the ABA/DP and DP/ABA entries would always indicate one duplicate record. Move author up. Hopefully I will not mess up the ISBN. I liked the way The Confederation Handbook worked, but do not understand how you got the two numbers in without conflict. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 20:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
By "the two numbers" you mean the ISBN-10 and the ISBN-13, am I correct? Whichever one you enter (provided the entry is valid), the software automatically uses to compute the other (a quite simple task, even with paper and pencil) and then both are automatically dispalayed. -DES Talk 20:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Your recent edit to Under the Moons of Mars

I have placed this edit on hold. The problem is that you changed the types of a number of the content records: Novel-> Serial (5 times) and shortfiction -> serial (3 times). What this would do, if allowed to proceed, would be to change every publication where each such title record appears in the same way. This is almost surely incorrect. What it would not do is replace an existing content record with a different existing record of the same title but a different type. I will have to either let this go forward but then undo the type changes right away, or else reject it but copy the notes and page numbers and apply them separately. I'm going to wait until I have a little time to look at this to see which method, or what alternate method, will be best.

Let me explain a bit more about how the isfdb works internally. We have three main types of records, and a number of other minor ones. The major records are Title records, Author records, and publication records.

An author record includes info about an author, artist, editor or other person, and any other record that has a field for a person points to one or more author records.

A title record is supposed to include information about a specific work, normally a specific text. All publications of that text should be associated with that title record. A title has a title field, an author field (that can handle multiple authors, a type field (Novel, shortfiction, essay, collection, anthology, or the like), title level notes, and some other fields including date of first publication.

A publication record contains information about a specific physical pub. It includes such fields as the date of that specific pub, page count, price, binding, and author(s). It also includes a pointer to the title record of the main work involved, and if other works are contained in the pub (as always in an anthology or collection, and often in a novel that includes essays) pointers to their title records too.

When a pub record is edited, the title records of the titles it points to are also open for limited editing. Their types can be changed, as can their names. New title records can be created. This is powerful and useful, but can be risky.

If an anthology's pub record contains an item "Sample Work" with type novel, but it ought to contain the related "sample work" that is of type shortfiction, then the first record must be removed from the pub record, and the 2md inserted. Trying to change in place will leave the db with two shortfiction records and no novel, which is unlikely to be correct.

Only when all occurrences of a content record are wrong (for example a secondary source included a misspelling, or an exact word count has refined an earlier guess about length, or the 1st pub date of the work is better known) should changes be made in the individual content records though the pub record (except for changing page numbers, those are pub-specific).

I hope all this helps make things a bit clearer. -DES Talk 03:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I think I caused you to wonder what I am doing. I have over three thousand titles in my possesion of fiction. So I am trying to help with those items and updated a personal database so I do not repeat the effort. So it will almost invariably be with book in hand. To me it is like stamp collecting. Try to get everything correct that you can find.
On Under the Moons of Mars, I foresaw difficulties and paradoxes in putting the material for this book in. That was why I drew up a plan and asked for help. Thank God, you are on your toes. I followed every link of the two almost identical entries for the book.
The problem is that Moskowitz used the oldest known first original source to get his material. In my mind, it must have material differences from the better known references that others linked to. The sources are first print in magazines. Many of the items were printed on a series of dates and hence are examples of a serial. Even those with only one date, should be termed serial. I did not change a couple because Moskowitz did not even hint at an edit. This would make them first source and hopefully complete. Short fiction might therefore fit instead of serial. I thought these the easiest to find a happy medium of compromise, though the use of a date which is a decade or more after the time the source was used is questionable. Though that might have to be the work around.
As an example of worst case scenario. Under the Moons of Mars by ERB is taken from the first printing of the story. It has two different edits that make it incompatible with The Princess of Mars which Moskowitz states is the complete story. The first edit was performed by the magazine when it was serially printed. Moskowitz states the editor of that day took 1,000 words from the start, rewrote the civil war section and made various edits to other chapters to make it fit the magazine space. This is reasonable for the method of publication, but it is fundamentally different from the original manuscript. Second Moskowitz deleted the preface and first two chapters entirely. He gave a brief personal version of the deleted contents and then started the story. This makes the Moskowitz version not the same as the Magazine version and that version does not match the same name ERB copyrighted version of Under the Moons of Mars or the Princess of Mars.
I tried to make the notes explain the sourcing. Perhaps I was not specific enough. In Polaris of the Snows the magazine serial version should read Polaris - of the Snows (the proper magazine title is taken from the reprint of the magazine serial) and Moskowitz only used the first five chapters in their entirety. I checked against my reprint version. It is exactly the same with the new reprint. The link leads to Polaris Janess and that is not in the reprint or Moskowitz.
I tried to convey how messed up the situation is when the original source has been missed. My only workaround was the note sections. I can see changing the serial descriptions back to the originals. The actuality though is that those links point to the wrong data. They are not the original source that Moskowitz used. Some of them bare little resemblance other than title to what he did. While the problem may be worked around for Moskowitz. With the new generation of reprints coming out from the original magazine source. the more corrupt the data links will become.
I tried to generate the 'Editors' interest because of the far reaching problems Moskowitz generated, but also the possibility of an 'Avalanche' effect of original reprints in the future. Maybe there are only a few potential reprint problems, but I can not evaluate that. Since I think you now can visualize the effects, then I recommend that the responsibility be spread to the Moderators as a group. I tried to get their attention, though I inadequately expressed the problem. I can even understand them tabling the matter until they can find either the best workaround for Moskowitz and the reprints. If my 'submission' is frozen to keep it for study then the group can take months or more. With the notes intact, and some addition to explain why a workaround was used. I can then verify the content and future users can have a reasonable heads up. I have to go, but will check later today. If it helps, this caused me to have quite a restless time trying to figure the best way. I thought it best to make the submission as it highlighted the greatest potential hazards. I knew it would not go through, because you guys are thoughtful. P.S. I have two more books covering the before and after period that also may have the same potentials. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 12:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I think I understand, in general, what you are trying to do, even if I don't have all the specifics. You have, in hand, an anthology that contains reprints of a number of fairly old and significant works of SF. This anthology has fairly detailed source notes on exactly which versions the editor (Moskowitz) used in creating this anthology, which is more than many reprint anthologies do. It also contains some useful essays on the stories and their place in SF history. You want to create an ISFDB record that reflects all this as accurately as possible, and pave the way for doing more such records in the future. Have I understood your basic intention correctly? Your idea of "as accurately as possible" would be that if the source used by the editor of the anthology was a magazine serial, then the ISFDB record for the anthology should link to a record for that serial. Unfortunately, due to the way the ISFDB is organized, that is not going to happen.
The ISFDB distinguishes between serials and other publications for several reasons. One is that collectors generally do not count a serial as a "first edition" reserving that term for the first publication in book form. Another is that it is probably more common for a work to be revised between serial and book publication than between different book publications (although that is far from uncommon either -- we have over 120 records with either "revised" or "expanded" in the title, and we probably should have a good many more). The serial record type also has special logic to handle the same title appearing in multiple parts. Because of this, you are never going to see a title of type SERIAL in any ISFDB pub record other than one of type MAGAZINE. When the same work, whether revised or not, is reprinted in book form, it will usually have type NOVEL, in some cases SHORTFICTION (shortfiction is usually listed as such in its magazine printings, since it is not normally broken up into multiple parts). Note that when a novel is printed in a magazine, even if the entire novel is included in a single issue, we assign the title record type SERIAL, but normally add "(Complete Novel)" to the title to indicate this. Then if the novel is reprinted in book form, a different title record with type NOVEL will e created, whether the text has changed or not. Notes may be used to indicate known changes.
Therefore, an anthology's contents section should point to records of type SHORTFICTION, or of type NOVEL, but not to records of type SERIAL. If the anthology uses only part of a previously published work, a new title record with an indication of this such as "(excerpt)" should be created for the partial work. If the version used in an anthology is known to be different from other reprint versions (for example because it is identical to the original magazine versions, when other reprints are not) a new title record should also be created, with an indicator such as "(revised)", or "(original version)", or "(magazine version)", or "(1956 revision)", or whatever fits the case following the title, to distinguish the different versions in title searches. If a different title is used, or a different author's name is used (say "R. A. Heinlein" instead of "Robert A. Heinlein") but the text is not significantly different, a so-called "variant title record" will be created to record this fact.
Please note that what Moskowitz has done here is far from unique, and we have dealt with similar things before. A number of anthologies do record their source versions (although many more do not) and do contain reprint versions different from other printings. For an extreme case, look up the "Vance Integral Edition" which has very detailed source notes indeed, and in some cases created the "preferred" version by combining several different versions of a work, some of them unpublished.
I am very very glad to hear that you have over three thousand titles and plan to enter data directly from them, book in hand. I am slowly working my way through my own collection, which is of similar size. It looks as if you may have titles which other contributers do not, and are willing to be careful in entering all the detail. All that is very good, and we are grateful. But you will need to learn the ISFDB's conventions for dealing with recording works. Some of these seem odd or ill-advised at first, but most have reasons behind them. Few are engraved in stone, and you can always suggest changes. Changes in our standards and methods do get made with some frequency, and anyone will be listened to in suggesting them. Changes that would require a redesign of the software are slower to happen, because programmer time is is short supply. But they do happen too. Have a look at ISFDB Feature List for currently pending requested feature changes.
I hope these comments help you understand what is going on with the ISFDB and your submission. -DES Talk 14:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh some terms: we call anyone who submits proposed changes to ISFDB records an "editor". All editors are basically equal, but some are more experienced than others. Some editors are "moderators". That means they know the system well enough to approve their own and other editors' proposed changes. No change goes into the db until it is approved by a moderator. Most (but not all) editors who stay with the project and make significant contributions eventually learn the system well enough to become moderators, if they so choose. I am one of the newer moderators, i only became an editor in January of this year, and a moderator on 12 May 2008. -DES Talk 14:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Great summary explanation by DES. During the learning phase it might be a good idea to update such publications incrementally, adding only a couple of stories at a time until you get some feedback. I know it's frustrating to wait for approvals but in the long run it may be more productive and less frustrating.--swfritter 15:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay I understand no serial due to conventions. No problem. Short fiction or novel is okay. No problem there. For clarification. Are you saying the title should read 'Under the Moons of Mars' (excerpt). If I can do that there is no problem. Those fixes are understandable. I am not really proposing changes in your system as such. I do not have that much knowledge of it nor of the capacity of the system itself. My primary concern is to verify it as complete as to what is said about the book. My next concern is that the entry does not misrepresent itself. The note section should explain that. My secondary concern is that the links point to a wrong source for the data. I can live with it doing so, if that is the position of ISFDB. In fact, it lets me off the hook for the links going to the right thing. To me this was important, but if that is not so then I will bear that in mind. I tend to be an intolerable purist in such matters. No links would satisfy me personally because they would imply no verification of the linked data. I guess that's the rub. I want everything to be correct with my name on it and I assumed the responsibility was for a valid link to other things. In short, I will assume the verification responsibility for the actual content of the entry, but not for the links. Is that reasonable? That actually would be a relief to me. I will admit that when using the DB and following such links I will feel that the results are to be questioned. That is no problem as that is how I conduct most searches online or in printed matter. Could that be confirmed I will be more than satisfied. Apologies, I am not casting aspersions, I just need to understand the limits of the verification process. I am sorry again. I never thought to check for notes. Moskowitz created the problem by citing each title on the contents page in this sample manner. UNDER THE MOONS OF MARS by Edgar Rice Burroughs (The All-Story Magazine, February-July 1912). That is exactly as it appears. He did it intentionally and I felt it should be stated as such. Frankly, I would most probably would never check for notes like this. BTW, I can find no notes, etc. I am trying to absorb the correct methodology, but I may have short circuited again. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 17:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I have approved your edit, and then made further edits to bring things into conformity with ISFDB conventions. The result is here. There is an open discussion about some aspects of how to handle the excerpts here. The "notes" section of a publication record comes near the end of the metadata section, and before the content entries. You entered notes as part of your edit, so I am not sure what notes you are unable to find. Not every publication has notes, and the field is not displayed if it is empty. There can also be notes on a title record, but these are rarer.
We really need a better way than notes to link titles that are related but not identical (the components of fixups are a major example). See Feature:90155 Add an optional "nature of the relationship" field to the Make Variant screen for some discussion of this.
Verification in my view means that:
  1. All the publication metadata is correct, and as complete as possible for the pub involved. The title and author are correct, the ISBN or catalog number is correct if present, the page count is correct (and note that if some pages have roman numbers this should be shown, as "xix + 212" where there are 19 pages with roman numbers), cover artist is correct if known.
  2. All fiction content has been entered, with page numbers. The entries point to the most accurate title records possible, within the ISFDB conventions
  3. All major essays have been entered with page numbers. Whether short story intros or "about the author" pages should be entered is a judgement call. Magazine blurbs are typically not entered, significant multi-page critical intros usually are.
  4. If any of the metadata is derived from sources other than the book itself, this is explained in the notes.
  5. If any of the significant details given in the book itself cannot be entered directly, they are explained or at least mentioned in the notes.
  6. Cover art need not be shown, but if a cover art URL is used, it points to the correct cover.
If all of that is true, the book may be marked as verified. Note that not everyone is as strict as the above, and that earlier in the history of the ISFDB primary verification sometimes meant only "Yes, this book actually exists, I've held a copy."
I hope that you are feeling welcomed, and that my comments seem helpful, not off-putting. The ISFDB is rather complex, and I only wish to help you learn how and why we do things, at least enough for you to be able to enter items from your collection. -DES Talk 19:47, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
You wrote "Are you saying the title should read 'Under the Moons of Mars' (excerpt)". Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The main reason is that otherwise, if someone goes to the title record for the novel Under the Moons of Mars, that person would see the anthology Under the Moons of Mars listed as one of the publications of the novel, and might incorrectly think that the entire novel could be found in the anthology. Or someone looking at the anthology record might incorrectly think it contained the entire novel, when it does not. Note that I have created the required except titles for this anthology. -DES Talk 19:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I made two errors in the data I gave you it is xiii + 433 pages and I should have started the essay 'A History of ' at the cover page of 289. I was checking actual start pages of material and skipped it initially. I will correct my two errors. Then await the approval and then verify. This will finish this. You have now made it an informative entry which no longer goes to spurious places. I do not understand how you accomplished the link back to the anthology, but that is a very elegant solution which tells everyone that some of the content is unique to the book. On Notes, I was saying I had not looked for notes as such. When the note topic came up I started looking for notes in the book. I would not know how to handle such, but would consider them part of the content. Moskowitz putting his source to be read directly after his titles threw me for a loop. He was demanding the readers attention. It was a cute ploy on his part. As for the book, I believe the anthology section was a way for him to push his perceptions as expressed in the title. By mixing the content he was seeking a marketable audience.

I was exasperated by the idea that original links would make people think they would get the full product of several stories in one book. Your solution solved that. The entry for this book now has quality. That was why I joined. The complete novel for magazine entry was shown to me in one correction and serial was discussed. I used it to see how it worked. I would have had to make the mistake to visualize it. The fine line definition of shortfiction and novella has always bothered me. I am saying I have no great grasp of when shortfiction becomes a novella. I learn by frustration and mistakes. I also can read something and not properly visualize it till I physically do it. At this stage, I had to look at the fixed product and then go to the edit page and check it to the format page. When I did my initial comparison of the dual entries of the anthology, I had to open two screens and compare content that way. I never mean to disparage the moderator(s). I just have to make mistakes, learn and try to communicate by using a message system that I also never had seen. So I am learning on many levels and that is always a growing process. I am more afraid that I will exasperate you and others. I try to never be hurtful in communications, but the medium of transmission can seem to make it hurtful. All real angst is personally directed at myself. Every time I think the situation has become impossible, you have been able to redeem it. You guys have extraordinary talent and composure. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 21:55, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I have approved your corrective edit. All of us make many corrective edits, sometimes of much more major items. I am glad that you like the current state of the record, I was afraid that you would not. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "link back to the anthology". You might mean the link from the title record of one of the works included to the publication record of the anthology, or the link from the pub record back to the anthology's own title record, or the link from the wiki page to the database record. The links from title pages to the publications in which those titles appear, and the links for pub records to their own title records are automatic, that is how the ISFDB displays those associations. (I suspect you mean the link from the "excerpt" entries to the anthology. Thant merely shows that the excerpts were published there, and so far, nowhere else. If we record additional printings or editions of the anthology, or if the same excerpts should happen to be printed elsewhere (possible but unlikely) there would be multiple links from each excerpt's title record.) The links I have inserted I did using Linking templates, particularly Template:P for pub records and Template:T for title records (the instructions for using each may be found on its discussion (talk) page). I find these handy and use them a good deal, and they have certain advantages IMO, but their main purposes could be served as well by inserting the URL of a db display page.
I did not at any time feel attacked or disparaged, I was merely trying to make sure that you understood what we do and how we do it at the ISFDB, and not to seem to be attacking you for not knowing this by divine inspiration. When I said "I don't know what you mean by..." I meant this literally, I did not fully understand what you were referring to, and I was inviting you to clarify your comment if it seemed important. Technical vocabulary can be helpful in making sure that two people are talking about the same exact thing, and know it, and you didn't yet have the detailed technical vocabulary we have developed for referring to the various displays and internal constructs of the ISFDB. If you stay around, you will pick this up, willy-nilly.
Again than you for your contribution, and I look foreward to many more. -DES Talk 15:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Encounter in Space again

I notice you've verified this edition with a note that says "Cover shows: H.K. Bulmer" - what form of the Author's name is given on the title page? Does it really say "Kenneth" there? BLongley 20:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Note the earlier section with the same title, where User:Dragoondelight says:
"Kenneth is not written at all on the book 'Encounter in Space". It is only H.K. Bulmer. People knew him as Ken on a personal basis. The reprint editions of the Dray Prescot series, which are approved by the family, state Kenneth Bulmer. In the specific it states Kenneth Bulmer writing as Alan Burt Akers (this is not Encounter in Space). I think most people knew him best as Kenneth Bulmer, as a true name, from his numerous Ace editions under that name."
I was planing to correct the pub based on the above, but hadn't gotten to it yet.. i did not realize that he had verified it. -DES Talk 20:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I have hanged the section title, so summary links work correctly. -DES Talk 20:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry I confused everyone. Kenneth is not written anywhere on the book. I thought it had been released. Is this about showing H.K. Bulmer instead of Kenneth Bulmer as the author? I thought that was covered under the pseudonyms entries under his name. I obviously missed something. Right now how the connection between most often, canon name, and others is hazy to me. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 23:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
We go with exactly what's on the book (what's on the title page trumps cover or spine name), then sort out all the connections between pseudonyms by creating variant titles. (And variant author names if they don't already exist.) So in this case I'll change it back to "H. K. Bulmer", so the publication has the right name on: then make that a variant of "Encounter in Space by Kenneth Bulmer". That way the book will show up under titles for "H. K. Bulmer" exactly, but also on Kenneth Bulmer's summary page which consolidates everything he's written under any pseudonym. I'm afraid the pseudonyms don't always sort themselves out automatically, it needs a bit of initial work. BLongley 18:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for unsnarling that. I find the linking and crosslinking for Kenneth Bulmer's books most confusing. I am a great fan of his even today, but his greatest mistake was his obsession with aliases. In the end it probably hurt his reputation. In the Dray Prescott series the linking with Alan Burk Akers then Dray Prescott on the same line and then reversing it has me biting my tail. I understand that fans want to make sure that people can cross reference data, but it looks like they are saying books with those combinations exist. Bulmer always copyrighted to one name only. At least, I have not seen one with dual acknowledgement. He did make story text reference to both aliases, but that was part of his story scheme. I thought the series listing scheme was a more accurate means than double listing and reversing name. I am most muddled by the entries and people must think there were more varied printings than there were. I am not even thinking of the British and especially German printings. Let me get this straight. Variant titles are used to link between pseudonym and preferred author names. They are not actual printing editions. ONLY publications references are real printed editions. Therefore, cross references are not used there, unless that title has a specific printed edition under those names. Thanks, Harry. --Dragoondelight 20:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately it isn't quite that simple. Variant titles are used in the ISFDB for several purposes:
  1. When the same text is actually published under two different titles, one of these is marked as a variant title. For example The Rediscovery of Man was a reprint of the collection The Best of Cordwainer Smith, so it is listed as a variant title.
  2. When a title is actually published with different author names in different editions, one is marked as a variant title, For example Fury was originally published as by "Lawrence O'Donnell", while later editions were generally credited to "Henry Kuttner" (although there is evidence that like most of Kuttner's work from this period, it was actually co-authored with C. L. Moore). This example is further complicated by the editions entitled Destination: Infinity. All of these are actual publications of the same text.
  3. When a work is released only under an author's name different from the canonical name for that author in the ISFDB, it is listed as a variant of an "edition" under the canonical name, to force all listings onto the page for the canonical name. In this case, the "parent" record is purely conventional, and does not represent an actual publication -- but sometimes later reprints are done under the canonical name.
  4. Currently under discussion is using a variant title to indicate when a book is split into halves or sections for republication. It is not yet agreed whether this is a good use of the variant title mechanism. In all of the first three cases, a variant title represents the (more or less) identical text, barring minor changes that might be lumped under copy-editing.
In any case, a variant title does not create a publication record. In the first two cases it links two actual publication records that have different authors and/or titles, but the same text. In the third case, it relates a publication record to a title record that has no direct (non-variant) publications of its own. In any case, publications that are marked as variant titles are considered to be publications of the "parent" title, and are shown in the list of pubs for the parent title record.
I hope this explanation of a somewhat confusing situation is helpful to you. -DES Talk 21:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I should also note that in any case, a publication record should show in the author field only the name(s) that actually appear on the title page (or first page of a work of short fiction or of an essay). Any other author names listed on the cover, spine, ToC, or elsewhere in the actual pub, or any other names known to have been used by the author, should be listed in the pub notes if they are listed at all. Generally names not listed in the pub in any way are not included in the notes unless there is a complex situation to be explained (as with Police Your Planet) but are indicated by Pseudonym relations and/or the creation of variant title relationships. -DES Talk 21:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Swordsmen in the Sky

Harry I fixed the image link[2], the one you submitted was for the page it was on. The way to get the proper image is to right click the image itself and under "Properties" you will find the correct URL. If you see this "._S500_."(this causes a white border) as part of the URL or som