User talk:Ofearna/Archive04

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Contents

Dating title records

I'm holding a number of edits that want to change the date of interiorart records from Tim White's "Chiaroscuro". I think you are trying to enter the copyright dates for these, but we use the publication date. See this help text. This means they should be dated 1988-00-00, the first publication of "Chiaroscuro". I accepted Alien Accounts, so you can see what I mean. --Willem H. 08:16, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

No response here, so I changed all to 1988-00-00. --Willem H. 12:37, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
k, Thanks!!! Ofearna 16:59, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Two rejections

I had to reject your update of Chiaroscuro and the interiorart record of Weaveworld, because this title was deleted in a previous merge. I copied the data you entered to the right records, except the date of the interiorart record (see above), but please check. --Willem H. 08:34, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Adding variant titles

I'm holding four submissions that want to add variant titles to Explorers of Gor. Please read this helpscreen I'm wondering why you're doing it this way. --Willem H. 08:47, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I've been told to either ; enter a new title or variant, and then when that's added, to append the publication OR ; to enter it as a new novel then variant it to the original book. So, that's what I did.Ofearna 17:15, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
The only advice I could find is here, and the advice was to add a publication and variant the resulting title record, rather than have a dangling variant title with no pub records. --Willem H. 19:05, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, forgot to approve these edits yesterday. Done so now. --Willem H. 08:44, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Gwen, in Green cover credit

I'm holding your submission to credit the cover of Gwen, in Green to Jim Burns for now. First, you informed Bill Longley, but you should also inform me (I'm the second primary verifier). Second, there's no source given for the credit. It's valuable information, but we want to know where it came from. --Willem H. 08:55, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

It's in both Lightship and Imago. I was going to "variant title" the cover art with the interior art when the change is approved. Sorry, didn't know I had to notify second primary verify-er, too.Ofearna 17:33, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Varianting a cover record doesn't show on the publication page. Added information from secondary sources should always be mentioned in the notes. And yes, all primary verifiers should be notified (unless they state otherwise on their talk page). --Willem H. 19:09, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Approved the edit and added a note about the source. --Willem H. 13:54, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Numbering pages

I accepted the addition of "Planet Story — War Wolves" to Lightship, but placed the pagenumber in brackets. Page 7 is the first numbered page in this pub. The current rules are here, but at the moment they're being discussed on the Rules and standards discussions, so they might change. --Willem H. 09:07, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I often encounter books (especially art books) that have inconsistent page numbering, but as long as it's within the 1-(end of book) I don't use the brackets unless the entire book's un-numbered. Thanks Ofearna 17:18, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Gilgamesh the King

I have your submission to add a 1984 publication to Silverberg's Gilgamesh the King on hold. What proof do you have that this is actually published? The way I read Lightship, there is a 1984 illustration by Burns that differs from the published version. --Willem H. 13:34, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I have no proof it was ever published; the way I read it since he put the publisher on there, it was published (he usually says "unpublished" or "rough" or something for early versions of paintings"). If you think I'm wrong and want me to cancel or want me to ask Jim, I can, though I don't know how long it'll take him to respond.Ofearna 17:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
I think it's better to cancel this submission. Asking Jim is a good thing of course. --Willem H. 19:13, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Adventure Stories for Girls

I have put your submission regarding title removes from this book on hold. I can't see any source or information for this. Have you something in hand? Stonecreek 15:22, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, just found the section on this book in the above. I will release your submission. It'd be better to give information on the background of a submission in the 'Notes to the Moderator' field, because we can't keep our mind covering all what's going on. Thanks, Christian Stonecreek 15:27, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Oddly, there's not always a notes to moderator field, but I'm gradually reading the stories (and, apparently, articles) in this book and will weed out the non-SpecFic ones as I encounter them. Ofearna 04:49, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Reality Dust / Making History /Strafer

I had to reject a submission that wanted to make this title a variant of this one for two reasons. First, we don't variant titles variant titles (the interiorart title "Strafer" is a variant of the cover title of "Analog Science Fiction and Fact, December 1993". Second, the illustrations that are on the database don't look alike. I don't have a copy of "Fantasy Art Masters", so I can't compare this with the other two. Please re-submit the right variant. Thanks, --Willem H. 18:21, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

The candlemaker and other stories

Hello, in your submission you propose to credit "Victoria Forster" as author although the cover and the contents listed seems to indicate that the author is in fact "Victoria Forrester". can you confirm ? Hauck 18:36, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, to 'R's... sorry typo Ofearna 04:50, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing data

I added notes about the source of the cover credit (Transluminal) to most of your Jim Burns edits, but I have four edits left that want to add another cover artist without sourcing the data. Can you add a note about the source for:

  1. A Clash of Kings 1 (Larry Rostant)
Rostant cover
  1. A Clash of Kings 2 (Stephen Youll)
SYoull cover
  1. A Clash of Kings 3 (John Howe)
http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/details.php?image_id=2768 John Howe's site
  1. A Game of Thrones (Stephen Youll)
SYoull cover

--Willem H. 19:16, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

All of these except the Howe cover were previously credited correctly in other variants, but since I didn't add any of the covers, just added credit... Ofearna 04:54, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Approved these and added notes. --Willem H. 14:04, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Analog Science Fiction and Fact, July 1996

I have your edit on hold that wants to change the cover credit for this 4 time primary verified pub to Jim Burns. When you want to change verified data, you should not submit, but first ask the primary verifier what he/she thinks. Please read this text first. Second, you added a nota about the source in the note to moderator field. Remarks there are lost on approval. It's far better to add this information to the notefield. --Willem H. 19:26, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

the art appears in Transluminal; I have NO IDEA ^_^ who Terri Czeczko is, but I know this is Jim Burns. Ofearna 04:56, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
According to http://www.locusmag.com/index/t745.htm#A37234, the only other cover by that person is by Keith Scaife, but since I am not quite as familiar with Scaife's artwork, I didn't change it. Ofearna 04:58, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
The problem is not that your edit isn't valid, but that you don't communicate with the primary verifier. Please read the helptext. --Willem H. 08:43, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
I *did* post a message on the primary verifier's discussion page..., but that person hasn't (apparently) been 'here' since January. Ofearna 08:56, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
There are four primary verifiers. The helptext states It is very strongly encouraged that you notify the verifier first if the change is particularly significant. Many moderators will not approve a "destructive" change -- that is one that removes or alters data in a verified pub record -- unless the verifier has been asked first. You only informed the first verifier about the submission. --Willem H. 10:15, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
In this case, Terri Czeczko is the cover designer (as per credit page). Adding data is always (IMHO) a positive thing but modifying "important" (publication date or artist but not number of pages) requires to give more attention to the "etiquette". Hauck 14:48, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
I rejected the edit. You can re-submit after discussing this with one or more primary verifiers. --Willem H. 14:07, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Cover for The Broken Wheel

Hi. I have your proposed artist change and cover image link for The Broken Wheel on hold. According to Locus1, Burns did the 1993 cover, Harrison did the 1991 cover, with both publications using the same ISBN. If you look at the verified Dell November, 1991 printing for ISBN 0-440-20928-5, having Burns as the artist, and the unverified NEL September, 1993 printing for ISBN 0-450-55139-3, you can see the latter likely has the wrong cover link (since it's the same as the Dell cover), but the artwork looks like a piece of the artwork on the image you found on Amazon, which would coincide with Burns' being credited to both of those covers. BTW, Fantastic Fiction's presentation corroborates that assessment, although that's certainly not authoritative. If you buy these arguments, you should cancel your submission and add that cover link to the 1993 printing of 0-450-455139-3 instead. Thanks. --MartyD 10:40, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and cancel, then...Ofearna 22:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Die Erforscher von Gor

I accepted Die Erforscher von Gor but changed the publisher to "Heyne" -- looks like that's what we've settled on to do with that one -- and the binding from PB to pb -- it's case-sensitive. --MartyD 17:39, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Cool, now I can add the cover art! Ofearna 06:09, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Artwork variant and merge questions/confirmations

I've gone through all of your proposed interiorart variants and merges, and I have a bunch on hold that I either have questions about or I'd like you to confirm are correct (since I can't tell due to the differing titles). I figured I'd hit you with all of them in one note.

These I only want to double-check that they're the correct matches:

All of these are dead-on right (no typos from me, yay!)Ofearna 06:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

No need to answer about each one. If you see any that are wrong, please cancel and re-submit. I'll accept everything that's left once you confirm. These are a little more involved:

The Image is correct, but in the book The Science Fiction and Fantasy World of Tim White there is no hyphen in the title under the image or on the acknowledgments page. Ofearna
Ok, variant it is, then. --MartyD 10:37, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I must have a typo or probably grabbed the wrong number, it's supposed to be Between Planets. Will cancel and re-do. Ofearna 06:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Again, correct. Will cancel the title/var and redo as merge. Thanks Ofearna 06:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Anthology merge with Bretta Martyn would lose the "Anthology" title, used in two pubs (one your verified JB, the other unverified). Did you perhaps mean to do something with a variant here instead of merging?
It should stay "Anthology", but all three are the same image... Ofearna 06:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Keeping "Anthology" is only right if it is NOT titled "Bretta Martyn" in Imago. Otherwise, a variant should be used. Variants are used for different titles or different author credits for the same work. --MartyD 10:37, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Planet Story [27] merge with Styrene Fome with Lobster would lose the "Planet Story [27]", which appears in several verified publications as part of a series of untitled, counted illustrations. I think this likely should be a variant instead.
I think it should look like "Planet Story [27]: Styrene Fome with Lobster" since that's the format for the named images in that book I've seen.Ofearna 06:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
There are a few others like that. But again the question then becomes: How is it titled in Imago? If it's just "Styrene Fome with Lobster", we'd still want a variant instead of a merge. --MartyD 10:37, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
  • \ (backslash) variant of Cover:/ (forward slash): Do you have Transluminal? I'm thinking that backslash is the wrong slash.... Nothing wrong with the variant, just keeping it on hold as a handy placeholder.
I probably just entered the wrong slash, since Transluminal just says "Slash".Ofearna 06:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
If Transluminal says "Slash", that's the title it should have. I notice we already have a few instances of its being called "Slant". I will accept the variant and change it to "Slash". --MartyD 10:37, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Let me know what you think about these. Thanks. --MartyD 19:01, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I have in general difficulties with making English titled cover art (by 'English drawing' artists) into variants of cover art in other languages. At least in the case of '(The) Eater of Worlds' this seems to be false: even in my German edition of the Tim White art book it is remarked that it was published by Mews Books in 1976 as cover art for 'The Eater of Worlds' by Gregory Kern / E. C. Tubb. I would have added the cover artist to the edition we have, but this is dated 1977, so it is only likely that White is the artist for this book.
None of us, especially BarDenis and myself, have been able to find a version of the Gregory Kern book (Tim White said he'd look for me, but he takes forever to answer) with the Tim White cover. I used http://www.isfdb.org/wiki/index.php/User:BarDenis as well as digging through hundreds of books and scans online and in libraries and UBSs.Ofearna 06:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
I tend to think that there is a reason for giving English titles for artwork, even if an English edition with the respective cover art was postponed or cancelled. I would keep the English title as the original one and make titles in other languages into variants of those. Stonecreek 19:39, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
When there is an instance of the original/English book available, That's exactly what I've/We've done. Thanks ! Ofearna 06:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
This is good idea. But if this artwork was originally for music album (Hearts of Fire) or concept art for movie (Amergin and Gorvenal)? BarDenis 19:58, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Even in this case I'd go for the English title: it was the title the artwork was titled firsthand (and created for). But since we don't include music albums, in this case the variant cover art should be made into variants of the interior art (I've done a similar case with Jim Burns' 'Planet Story': several pieces of the interior art were later used as covers). Stonecreek 04:11, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
For the illustrations from "The Science Fiction and Fantasy World of Tim White" you can check this page. ("Earth Enslaved" is a variant of "Between Planets") BarDenis 19:47, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks you guys. Will consider what you, as mods, decide. Thanks! Susan Ofearna 06:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
How best to handle artwork is outside my limited expertise. I will accept them, since recording the relationships is useful even if we think they should end up being the other way around. --MartyD 10:37, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, Marty, but I approved another submission for Planet Story [27]: Styrene Fome with Lobster, not realizing that you had that one on hold. Stonecreek 13:59, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
No problem. Susan cancelled the one I had on hold, and I think it's all set now. Apologies for the limited availability lately. --MartyD 23:23, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Исследователи Гора by John Norman

You have some errors in this pub. You can use this site. Publisher: АРМАДА (Armada). Publication Series: Фантастический боевик (Fantasticheskij boevik, en. Funtastic Thriller). Binding: hc (твёрдая in Russian). Pages: 459 (last page adv.). BarDenis 07:52, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks I think that fixed it and all changes are accepted, so... Ofearna 16:31, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Lightship

I have a submission on hold that wants to change this first printing into a third printing. We already have a third printing here. Can you tell me what you wanted to do? Another thing, you add a lot of interiorart items with the an earlier date than the first publication of Lightship. As I tried to explain before, we use the date an item is first published in this form. In this case that should be 1985-00-00. --Willem H. 13:52, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I was adding to Lightship 3rd, the 2000 printing, which I've been adding to as I can. And using the date given since that seems to be how most of these go and I've been doing that with the other art books I was working on... Now I'm confused ^_^ Ofearna 16:30, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
These are the notes you added

ALSO $31.95 Can and £14.99 UK Edited, designed and produced by Martyn Dean Text ©1985 Chris Evans Third edition per "3 5 7 9 8 6 4"

And you changed the price from £7.95 to $21.95. That's what confused me. --Willem H. 18:15, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The top price is the US then Can, then UK... and I just added the confirmation? for the 3rd edition? Is that right (once submitted I can't see what I've done). Susan Ofearna 19:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
As I stated above, you submitted this for the first printing Don't let the note confuse you, look at the publication date. I'll clean up this mess, and add the contents to the 3rd printing, but please be more careful next time. This takes a lot of time, and I don't get paid for it. --Willem H. 19:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Cleaned up I think. I removed all contents from the 1st printing. Please check if everything is ok now. --Willem H. 21:13, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
THANKS SO MUCH!!!!!Ofearna 22:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The Terridae / Clean Getaway

I rejected your edit to merge The Terridae (frontispiece) with Clean Getaway, and varianted them instead. The titles are quite different. --Willem H. 13:32, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks ! Ofearna 17:55, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
My reasoning was the frontspiece wasn't named in The Terridae, but when the artwork was reprinted in The Deceiving Eye it was named ... Ofearna 22:39, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

The Candlemaker and Other Tales

I have a submission on hold that wants to remove nearly all contents from this pub. I'm wondering if you meant to delete the pub, because a better version is here. --Willem H. 08:38, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

There's an erroneous Victor Foster that needs to be deleted b/c the author is Victoria Forrester. d'oh! Ofearna 18:42, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Deleting an author is easy. The system does that for you after everything is deleted that points to that author. In this case that's only the chapterbook record. What you do, is delete the publication (I'm pretty sure the other is the right one). After that's approved, you delete the title record and Victoria Foster should be gone. There's a helptext here. Do you want to try this? --Willem H. 19:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
No response, so I deleted the pub and associated titles for you, and rejected your submission. --Willem H. 19:13, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Cloning Imago

I had to reject your submission for this clone, because one of the contents items was lost in a recent merge. Instead I created this clone with your data. Please check. --Willem H. 19:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Awesome! I'll look it over and verify. Ofearna 20:16, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing data, again

Is there any way I can convince you to add notes about data from secondary sources? I have your submission for Weaveworld on hold. Even if it's pretty obvious that Tim White is the artist, there should be a note. Since this is a primary verified pub, you can be sure the artist isn't mentioned in the pub. On the bright side, you did inform Chris J, that's good! --Willem H. 19:56, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, my note didn't stick here. Not only does this image MATCH all the other books with this cover, but it's verified, so I assume it's the correct cover AND the clive barker site states that this is the cover. Also, I did (I swear, I remember doing it ☺) I added a note in the notes to Moderator field that this is the same art/cover that appears in the Tim White books... Ofearna 21:57, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
There is a big difference between the note to Moderator and the pub notes. The second stays with the pub, the first is lost on approval. The point I'm trying to make, is that if you add data to a publication from other sources than the book itself, we add a note about the source to the publication notes, so the next user/verifier doesn't have to wonder where the information came from. I'll approve your edit, so you can see that no notes were added to the record. Please try again. --Willem H. 07:34, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Creating variant titles

I'll leave your submission to add a German variant to The Amber Citadel for another moderator. This is not the way to create variants. It's far better to add the publication, and variant the resulting title to the original. --Willem H. 08:21, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

People of the Lightning

You mentioned in the note to the moderator that you wanted someway to differentiate the cover for this publication People of The Lightning - 1996 (and also I will assume People of the Lightning - 2010} from the cover used on People of the Lightning-Unknown date 1 and People of the Lightning-Unknown date 2. May I suggest instead of changing the name on the 'different' pair, that you instead, unmerge them, create a new record, and then put a note in the new record 'Do not Merge - These are different covers'? (Also today there are new software improvements. Years ago moderators only saw the names on cover merge submissions. Today we can actually see each artwork being merged and will most often stop the merge from happening when the artwork is very different. Kevin 21:02, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

So what I'm going to do, is cancel your submission for the name change of 'Royo' to 'Luis Royo'. Instead I'm going to recommend that you go to the Cover Record Cover: People of the Lightning. Once there, you should submit an 'Unmerge' on the two covers that don't belong. Step 2: Merge the two covers you separated. Step 3: Make the cover (that includes both records that are different) covers a Variant of 'Luis Royo'. (There will now be Two listings for 'Lightning' under Luis Royo, and both of those will state that they are only 'as by Royo'.) Step 4 - submit an edit to put a note into both 'Lightning' cover records "Do not Merge without verifying artwork- There are two different covers, both by Royo, for this book title" - I hope this helps, and I hope I understood what you were trying to do. If I've misunderstood in any way, or if you need additional explanation, just ask. - Thanks Kevin 21:02, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I've been specifically told NOT to EVER unmerge, so I don't know what to do now... Ofearna 21:08, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry.. I'm an irregular moderator.... so I may have stepped in something here. I'll get back to you. Kevin 21:34, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
I've found the fix here User_talk:Ahasuerus#Unmerge_oddity and I'll step through it real quick to solve this problem today. - Thanks for hitting me with the clue stick. Kevin 21:37, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Ok. Fixed. Take a look at Lightning Cover Record - Artwork 1 and Lightning Cover Record - Artwork 2 Kevin 21:43, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Loverly!!! you're marvelous.Ofearna 22:08, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

The Black Ship

I've "neutralized" (with some detours) your submission to variant this artwork as it seems that you intended to make it a variant of this artwork. If I was wrong, can your infirm ? Hauck 05:53, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

No... it's supposed to be the cover art for a book.. I'll re-do slower ^_^ Ofearna 05:55, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Noting secondary sources

I noticed your update to the 2nd printing of The Gray Prince gives the same Jim Burns credit you added to the verified 1st printing. Is the lack of credit in this printing of the pub and secondary source of credit via Lightship the same? If so, you should note it. I know Willem has mentioned it a couple of times before: You really must note secondary sources of information. Artist identifications are particularly important, as it is sometimes very difficult to sort out discrepancies without knowing their origination. Thanks. --MartyD 11:14, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Oddly, now The Gray Prince gives an error message... Ofearna 19:30, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
If that was a separate cover title, maybe someone merged them. See this. --MartyD 19:43, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Der Letzte Falke

Hello, I approved your new publication here, but shortened the publisher to just Bastei Lübbe (Bergisch Gladbach just being the town where the publisher is situated). I'll do some research and see if I find something about the other data (price etc.). Thanks for adding this one, Stonecreek 17:10, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

CFQ/Cinefantastique

I have two of your submissions on hold since the "Note to Moderator" fields read: "I've been told this is NOT an ISMDB-able magazine".

Could you please point me to the discussion where you were told not to enter CFQ/Cinefantastique issues? In general, we enter issues of non-genre magazines if they contain SF -- see Help:Entering non-genre magazines for details. The same Help page explains that we also link these issues to their cover art if the latter illustrates the SF content: "if the cover art illustrates the SF content, or is by a well known SF artist, enter the credit, and if an image is available, enter the URL".

Perhaps there is more to the CFQ/Cinefantastique case, though, so I'd like to review the discussion before deciding one way or the other. TIA! Ahasuerus 06:25, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Some other background - I rejected submissions 1908677 and 1908675 with comment "Note should be on the main publication as a cover, i.e. on Cinefantastigue" and received a message explaining why they were submitted this way. I don't believe we want cover-images in INTERIORART notes though, they'll rarely be visible and/or searchable. I would support the inclusion of Cinefantastique as a nongenre magazine - I understand it is mainly aimed at film, but there must surely be a lot of interviews of SF authors who have been lucky enough to get the Hollywood treatment? As to the two submissions here - I'd say the Stephen King picture might be useful for people that don't know what our author looks like, the one for Carrie is more borderline as it illustrates the film character not the book one. But I'd be happy with either on a Cinefantastique stub entry. BLongley 12:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
So I CAN enter CFQ/Cinefantastique magazines as long as they have SF covers (not film or TV) or articles about SF books/authors? Cool...Ofearna 08:21, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
I would say so. Just don't try to enter every film review or suchlike, and stick to stuff relevant to written SF. BLongley 08:42, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Cover art credit

If the cover artist is unknown or uncredited, you should leave the "Cover Art" field blank, and record the information in the note field. I accepted the submission adding the image to this record, but moved the "artist unknown" to the Note field. Mhhutchins 14:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I also changed the credit for interiorart pieces in this record from "artist unknown" to just "unknown". Mhhutchins 14:19, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

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