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(1 Novel, 1 ISBN, 2 volumes: new section)
(1 Novel, 1 ISBN, 2 volumes: ah, the French nighmare)
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Need some help on how to best record [ Nevelen van Avalon], which is a single novel with 1 ISBN, but has been published as [ two separate pb pockets]. Do I serialize these two?
Need some help on how to best record [ Nevelen van Avalon], which is a single novel with 1 ISBN, but has been published as [ two separate pb pockets]. Do I serialize these two?
See also [ here], which is even worse, as for that one the novel has been published in three separate volumes. Any help appreciated. TIA! [[User:MagicUnk|MagicUnk]] 12:22, 13 September 2019 (EDT)
See also [ here], which is even worse, as for that one the novel has been published in three separate volumes. Any help appreciated. TIA! [[User:MagicUnk|MagicUnk]] 12:22, 13 September 2019 (EDT)
: Common with the French. We add the books separately and variant them to the full novel (and add notes). Serialization as used now (and per the rules) is only for magazines. See [ this one] for an example. The one ISBN is not a problem - just add notes explaining the case. [[User:Anniemod|Annie]] 12:44, 13 September 2019 (EDT)

Revision as of 16:44, 13 September 2019

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Expanded archive listing


Queer Sci Fi's Flash Fiction Contest

I’ve recently entered, or entered the contents of the Queer Sci Fi's Flash Fiction Contest books. Only the contest’s fiction from the second through fifth have seen print, but to keep the integrity of the series should I create an “unpublished” record for the first contest’s winners? MLB 17:35, 5 April 2019 (EDT)

According to Template:PublicationFields:Date, "8888-00-00 is used to date publication records for books that were announced but never published", which I think is how we typically use it. Was there an announcement that promised to publish the winners of the first contest? Ahasuerus 18:05, 5 April 2019 (EDT)
Don't know, just stumbled unto this contest while browsing Amazon. Took a lot of detective work to enter and update what is now here. Just thought I would ask. If not, and I have no problem doing so, I'll just move on. MLB 22:46, 5 April 2019 (EDT)

Clarke Award: winner vs shortlist categorization

(I'm new to ISFDB, so apologies if I'm asking this in the wrong place. I tried doing wiki searches on terms like "category", "shortlist" and "winner", but couldn't see anything obviously relevant)

I've been playing with a local copy of the DB, and noticed a minor issue with the categorization of last year's Clarke winner, Dreams Before the Start of Time. All previous winners are in the "Winner" category, but this title is stuck in "Shortlist". You can see this either by visiting and scrolling to the bottom, or running this SQL query:

   select award_title, award_level, award_year, award_type_id, award_cat_id from awards where award_type_id = 13 and award_level = 1 order by award_year;

I'm not quite sure how to make this record consistent with the others via the UI (obviously doing the SQL update would be easy ;-) but more to the point, I'm not sure if this would be the right thing to do: currently the aforementioned URL states "Displaying all wins and nominations for this category." which is technically correct, but seems potentially misleading to a naive user like me who doesn't realize/spot the implications of "Winner" and "Shortlist" being separate categories. A *very* cursory search hasn't thrown up any other comparable juried awards (e.g. PKD, Campbell Memorial) using separate categories in this way either. As such, I wonder whether a better solution might be to merge all the Clarke Winner and Shortlist records into a single category? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] ([[User talk:|talk]] • contribs) ErsatzCulture.

Thanks for the heads-up! I have changed the award category of this award from "Shortlist" to "Winner". Hopefully, thins look better now.
Looking at the big picture, I am not sure the way the award categories for this award type are set up is optimal. I will starts a discussion on the Community Portal. Ahasuerus 19:27, 9 April 2019 (EDT)
Thanks - will keep an eye on that section you've just added, as making that change would mean I don't have to code in a special case for this award in my personal project :-) --ErsatzCulture 20:34, 9 April 2019 (EDT)
The categories have been adjusted so you can now nix the special case :) The next publicly available backup file will be uploaded on Saturday. Ahasuerus 15:52, 14 April 2019 (EDT)

Adding unnumbered page items before existing items

Case in point: Gretchen's Wood collection by Ran Cartwright. I previously entered the contents but omitted "Acknowledgements" and "Foreword" because they were on unnumbered pages, which I was unsure how to handle. I believe I now update Pages to "[5]+198", but would I then enter these prefatory items as "[1]" and "[3]" respectively to get them to appear before the story on the first numbered page?Cjearkham 08:05, 10 April 2019 (EDT)

NM. Just found the "Sorting" field on the NewPub Help page. Cjearkham 08:25, 10 April 2019 (EDT)Cjearkham

That's the one :-) Ahasuerus 11:31, 10 April 2019 (EDT)

Removing images

I mistakenly loaded an image for the wrong publication. There was none before so this can be removed. I've looked around the Help / FAQ and can't see any reference to instructions on what to do. Do these exist and if so, where are they? Thanks. ../Doug H 12:43, 11 April 2019 (EDT)

At this time the Wiki is configured in a way that doesn't allow non-moderators to delete Wiki page. I have gone ahead and deleted the uploaded file. Ahasuerus 14:38, 11 April 2019 (EDT)
You can add {{Deletion candidate|your reason here}} to the image page and it will get deleted. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:11, 11 April 2019 (EDT)
My thanks, but there is still no easily-found documentation on what to do. ../Doug H 08:11, 12 April 2019 (EDT)
I've created Help:Deletion as I couldn't find any other documentation. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:22, 12 April 2019 (EDT)

Is "no plays" a firm rule?

"T's Culture issue, on newsstands April 14, pays tribute to the artist’s inability to unquestioningly accept the society in which she lives. For it, we asked 15 playwrights to imagine America five years into the future — in 2024." thanks gzuckier 23:22, 14 April 2019 (EDT)

Is "no plays" even a rule? Is Dracula: The Vampire Play in Three Acts a mistake? ../Doug H 08:13, 15 April 2019 (EDT)
SF plays, screenplays, movie scripts and other printed (or e-published) texts are "in". Gzuckier may be thinking of the bullet point on the ISFDB:Policy page which says:
  • Included: ... audio books, i.e. readings, but not dramatizations
Ahasuerus 08:48, 15 April 2019 (EDT)
Perhaps I was thinking of an alternate universe. thanks. gzuckier 22:51, 16 April 2019 (EDT)
We should have a Title Type "Play", probably. gzuckier 22:28, 17 April 2019 (EDT)

Is this a language?

I ran across a reference to a book I may want to catalogue, but wasn't sure how to classify it as far as language goes - it's in Pitman shorthand for an English translation of Around the World in Eighty Days. I'm leaning to English because the title on the title page is normal script and simply noting the Pitman part. Any ideas? ../Doug H 10:32, 17 April 2019 (EDT)

I would list it as English and leave a note stating it's in Pitman shorthand. Shorthand (of any type) is simply a quick way to write. It's often used in places like courtrooms, where a lot of information is needing to be recorded without time to stop proceedings to catch up. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 10:51, 17 April 2019 (EDT)

Just imagine if the title had been in Pitman though - I presume there is are Unicode values for Pitman that would be transliterated and a claim it was English. I wonder how much Pitman we have and how you'd find it. ../Doug H 11:35, 17 April 2019 (EDT)

We defer to the ISO 639.2 standard to determine what counts as a separate language for our purposes. They have a code ("sgn") for "Sign languages", but nothing for shorthand notations. Ahasuerus 15:29, 17 April 2019 (EDT)
Also, Pitman shorthand is still English. It's just a style of abbreviating words and phrases to allow speedy note taking. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:44, 17 April 2019 (EDT)

Python Error

I'm seeing a Python error for this title as well as its variant. I can paste the dump of the error if you're unable to reproduce. Thanks. --Ron ~ RtraceTalk 11:07, 20 April 2019 (EDT)

Looking into it... Ahasuerus 11:23, 20 April 2019 (EDT)
It turns out that we have 4 title records with corrupted synopses which result in Python errors. I am currently trying to figure out what's causing them. Thanks for reporting the problem! Ahasuerus 11:43, 20 April 2019 (EDT)
The 4 affected titles have been fixed and their synopses re-entered from the submission history table. The synopses were entered in 2007-2013, so whatever went wrong with them was presumably caused by a software bug which has been -- most likely -- fixed since then. Hopefully. Ahasuerus 14:28, 20 April 2019 (EDT)
Thanks for the speedy response, as always. --Ron ~ RtraceTalk 15:39, 20 April 2019 (EDT)

Event Horizon webzine

I'd like to enter the data for this webzine, which was active from 1998 until 2000/2001, and the archive can be found here: It had a combination of stories and non-fiction by fairly well-known writers. However, it didn't publish on specific dates or with particular issues, but would release content irregularly. What would be the best way to enter this kind of data? Gengelcox 11:59, 24 April 2019 (EDT)

Individual stories and essays have release dates (at least according to this page and this page], so just use those dates for the stories. You'll have to enter each as a chapbook with the story as the content of the chapbook and a note explaining things. I recommend including an archive link for each story. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:51, 24 April 2019 (EDT)

Same title/author, different stories

John S. Glasby wrote two different stories called "The Black Mirror". The one in _The New Lovecraft Circle_ is completely different from the one in _Supernatural Stories 109_ and _The Thing in the Mist_ collection. How do we split these? Cjearkham 17:29, 28 April 2019 (EDT)

I split them apart and added a title note. It would be appreciated if you could add some more distinguishing information (synopsis or quote of first lines) to each. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 17:54, 28 April 2019 (EDT)

how variant does a title have to be?

Regarding "The Girl, the Gold Watch & Everything", it's apparent there are versions with "&" or "and", with or without Oxford comma. Wikipedia says

A second comma was added to the title (after "Watch") with the second printing, and dropped again with the 14th printing.
The only English-language printing that used "and" instead of an ampersand (&) was the Coronet Books printing published by Hodder Fawcett Ltd. in the United Kingdom (1968).

Is that worth varianting, or just a pub note? Thanks. gzuckier 13:52, 29 April 2019 (EDT)

Since we are supposed to credit per the pub, per rule, each version should be separately entered & variants created. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:34, 29 April 2019 (EDT)
ok thanks gzuckier 12:50, 3 May 2019 (EDT)

Novel-length work listed as SHORTFICTION and included in collection?

I just looked up "The Mouser Goes Below," by Fritz Leiber. It's listed as SHORTFICTION, and it appears in The Knight and Knave of Swords. But I have that book in front of me, and "The Mouser Goes Below" runs from page 111 to page 292. The pages are about 400 words long by my count, so the whole piece is about 70,000 words long. So according to Help:Screen:EditPub, it should be listed as NOVEL instead of SHORTFICTION. But (a) that seems like a big change for me to make without checking with someone first, and (b) the page for the story's title says that the story was "Originally published as two stories: "The Mouser Goes Below" in Whispers #23 (1987) and "Slack Lankhmar Afternoon Featuring Hisvet" in Terry's Universe (1988)." So I thought I should check before making any changes. Is it okay to reclassify "The Mouser Goes Below" as a NOVEL? Do I need to make any other changes if I do that? --Elysdir 23:45, 29 April 2019 (EDT)

In this case it would be best to ask (active) primary verifiers on the length, it seems. Stonecreek 23:58, 29 April 2019 (EDT)

Publication series that changed name

I have a situation where this publication series changed name, probably after first book in series. Here is a new name Difference is only in one word, publisher decided to change it for some reason. The book in original series was mentioned on covers of books in latter series. What should I do? Debolestis 14:32, 4 May 2019 (EDT)

If it was changed after only the first book, I would include the first book in the new series and place a note on the series page and the first book title page explaining what happened. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:35, 4 May 2019 (EDT)
Thank you!Debolestis 16:03, 4 May 2019 (EDT)

Günter Kunert's "Der Mann vom Mars"

We have a title record for Günter Kunert's "Der Mann vom Mars", but there is no publication record. According to Olaf R. Spittel's "Science Fiction in der DDR", the story first appeared in Kunert's collection Der ewige Detektiv und andere Geschichten. Wikipedia includes the following information about the book:

  • Der ewige Detektiv und andere Geschichten. Erzählungen. Berlin, DDR: Eulenspiegel Verlag. 1954.

Would it be possible to determine if any other stories in the collection are SF and create a publication record for it? TIA! Ahasuerus 11:37, 10 May 2019 (EDT)

P.S. It turns out that Spittel states that there was another SF story in the book, "Der neue Nachbar". Ahasuerus 11:45, 10 May 2019 (EDT)

I've added the one known publication for the collection: I've categorized it as non-genre, since Kunert is known primarily as an author outside of speculative fiction (it may turn out, though, that all or the majority of stories in this particular book are genre). Stonecreek 17:13, 11 May 2019 (EDT)
Thanks! Ahasuerus 17:21, 11 May 2019 (EDT)

Pulp Tales Facsimiles

Looks like I did it again, I entered a number of pulp facsimiles, like this one, and I thought I would use the cloning technique to create them, but now I can’t put them into this series any suggestions? I wouldn’t mind redoing them if need be though. MLB 06:14, 12 May 2019 (EDT)

You'll need to unmerge that publication from its title record. Then you'll need to edit both the publication and the new title record to convert them to an anthology, and put the title into the series. I should do it. --Ron ~ RtraceTalk 07:40, 12 May 2019 (EDT)

Endpaper Maps

How do I enter an endpaper map, especially when it is by a different artist than other INTERIORART items? Cjearkham 21:16, 12 May 2019 (EDT)

You add another INTERIORART record, credited to that artist. If the map doesn't have a title, then add " (map)" or " (maps)" when using the book's title to disambiguate from the rest of the interior art. And use one of the special "fep" (front end paper) or "bep" (back end paper) page numbers for the page if the location is indeed the end paper. If the location is not the end paper, but rather one of the pages before or after the main body of the publication, see this help for more details about how to number the page(s). --MartyD 22:23, 12 May 2019 (EDT)

My password is not accepted

I have not logged in for three years and when I now try I get the response "Login failed: Bad password" I have not found any way to have my password reset. I creayed a new user to ask this question. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ErnHje (talkcontribs) .

We haven't purged inactive user accounts since ISFDB 2.0 went live in 2006, so it is most likely something.
Keep in mind that user names and passwords are case sensitive. Is it possible that you were not using the right case combination when you tried your old account? It happens fairly often. Ahasuerus 15:07, 16 May 2019 (EDT)

How does one create Ed title for magazines?

For instance, when creating new magazine, I always end up with that issue listed as the Ed title, e.g., instead of having a whole year's worth listed as the Ed title, e.g. Thanks. gzuckier 13:56, 18 May 2019 (EDT)

You end up this way because the title title is automatically generated from the publication title. You have to edit the title (or merge with an already existing one). Stonecreek 14:47, 18 May 2019 (EDT)
ah, thanks. gzuckier 20:13, 19 May 2019 (EDT)

New magazine

Trying to enter the new issue of F&SF. When I try to submit I'm told to NOT put an editor or author. When I try to submit WITHOUT an editor or author I'm told I MUST enter an editor or author. Catch 22 here.Jim 18:33, 20 May 2019 (EDT)

You are using the "Add New Magazine" on the left menu, correct? If so, place the editor in the "Author" field at the top of the page. Do not add an "Editor" record in the contents. The software will create one automatically. If you are doing that and still having an issue, please provide more details (what fields are you using and what are you setting them to). Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 19:00, 20 May 2019 (EDT)
Thanks. Found it. One of the entries slipped to "Editor" instead of "Essay". Going through entry-by-entry turned it up.Jim 19:05, 20 May 2019 (EDT)

"Michael Todd"?

We currently state that Michael Todd is an alternate name used by Michael Anderle and L. A. Starkey. Unlike some other names associated with Michael Anderle and his many projects -- e.g. Judith Berens -- I haven't been able to find an explicit statement about "Michael Todd"'s physical existence or non-existence. In certain cases Michael Anderle and his team bring existing authors on board, so multiple scenarios are possible. Would anyone happen to be familiar with this case? Ahasuerus 15:10, 22 May 2019 (EDT)

As the person that added this pseudonym, "Michael Todd" is a shortening of Michael Todd Anderle's name. Many of the books that I added to this site had Michael Todd on the cover, and had Michael Todd, Michael Anderle, and L. A. Starkey on the title page, while the book would only be copyrighted by Anderle and Starkey. There were multiple variations of this combo. There is also Michael Todd by his ownsome (but copywrited by Anderle), or used to collaborate with others (including Anderle, Jr.). Considering how prolific he is, I suspect he's more of a packager (up to six 600-page novels a month) than a writer. I gave up paying attention to what he is doing now, but I don't believe Starkey is collaborating with hime anymore, or she's doing it under another pseudonym. Michael Todd may even be a house name of some kind. I only listed what I could find using Amazon's "Look Inside" feature. Everything is now as clear as mud I'm sure. MLB 23:51, 3 June 2019 (EDT)


Hi guys,

Sandra Odell is listed as having interviewed Halli Villegas here: but that was a mistake.

Here's the proof that Tyhitia Green is the author of that interview.

Thanks! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Charlie B. (talkcontribs) .

Thanks for the information. I will make the change. -- JLaTondre (talk) 08:52, 26 May 2019 (EDT)

"Red Birds", fantasy genre? Haven't read it, but various reviews mention "supernatural occurrences" and one of the narrators is a dog.... seems fantasy to me? Thanks gzuckier 02:10, 26 May 2019 (EDT)

Adding a publication to an existing series

The pub Degrees of Separation in number 27 in the series Adventures in the Liaden Universe. However, it currently is not in the series. Editing the pub does not allow a series to be entered. How can the pub be put into the series? Bob 18:11, 29 May 2019 (EDT)

Chapbooks cannot be added to series. You need add the contained shortfiction. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:31, 29 May 2019 (EDT)
Ah, the rest of the series are collections, this one is a single story! Thanks. Bob 21:03, 29 May 2019 (EDT)
I've done/seen done this-if there is information enough to do so, it can be given a decimal designation, or given a special designation reserved for Liaden short fiction. See how I did this for this author's series as examples. MLB 23:29, 3 June 2019 (EDT)

Review of Collections

How does one handle a review of a collection? If the review doesn't discuss individual stories, it seems obvious to just treat it as a review of the collection title, but what if it goes into detail about a few, or all the individual stories? Can it be a review of both the collection title, as well as a review of individual stories within the collection? Thanks. gzuckier 00:49, 2 June 2019 (EDT)

If multiple stories are discussed then I would list the book. If one story is discussed, but is used as an example of the whole collection, then list the book. I would only list the story if the collection is referenced as the place where the short story that is discussed, has been found, to be found, or is the source of the discussed story. MLB 23:14, 3 June 2019 (EDT)
My guideline for such cases was that there should be a substantial amount of text (a paragraph) with more than a categorizing as 'this is good' / 'this is bad' for the respective items. Stonecreek 23:30, 3 June 2019 (EDT)

Robert Moore Williams / Jongor

Robert Moore Williams wrote a number of Jongor novels, but the listing is a mess. According to the listings they are listed as both novels and novellas. And now I’ve added more, and I don’t which to merge them with. I’d like to change them all either to novellas or novels, and then merge them together, as multiple websites have stated that the paperbacks were straight reprints and not revisions. I can’t compare texts, so I don’t know. Being a trash brat from way back, I’d like to straighten these entries out. Opinions? MLB 23:08, 3 June 2019 (EDT)

Difficult. What really would be needed would be a word count (or a thorough estimate of it) for the titles. If there are reprints in book form with less than 130 pages, from experience I'd say it's safe to categorize them as novellas. Stonecreek 23:28, 3 June 2019 (EDT)
What I'll do is use the original serial versions as a rule. There is literally no consistancy on this site, with serials, Ace Doubles, and short paperbacks often being listed as both novellas and novels. The size of the type often has something to say in the conversation. As the saying goes, consistancy is the hobgoblin of ISFDB. And since I don't have the originals to check, I'll just have to make do until somebody has both and check the wordcount themselves. MLB 04:34, 4 June 2019 (EDT)
Crap, I forgot all of these were verified, I gotta get their input first. Will notify them first, no rush. MLB 04:48, 4 June 2019 (EDT)
I have the paperback reprints of volumes 1 and 3 here. There are 10 words per line. 10 times 42 lines per page is 420 words per one page of solid text. Paragraphs and dialog reduce it by approximately 10 half-lines (or 50 words) per page, which means that there are roughly 370 words per actual page.
The text starts on page 5 and ends on pages 126 and 128 respectively. 0.5 to 2 pages are lost per chapter due to the way they are separated with blank pages. Since there are 11 chapters per book, it reduces the effective page count to around 110. 110 pages times 370 words per page is 40,700 words.
In other words, they are right on the border between novellas and novels. Ahasuerus 10:23, 4 June 2019 (EDT)
So . . . being just a lowly editor with too much time on his hands, should I change the novels and put a note in the note field? MLB 18:03, 4 June 2019 (EDT)
I guess the first thing to do would be to try to figure out if the stories were expanded when they were reprinted in book form in 1970. Two of the three magazines have been verified, so we can ask the verifiers to estimate their word counts and see if they match the numbers that I posted above. I have the affected Fantastic Adventures issues in my collection, but they are hard to get to and I am not feeling well at the moment, so I'll defer to the primary verifiers. Ahasuerus 18:54, 5 June 2019 (EDT)


“Ponies”, by Kij Johnson, is listed separately as a chapbook and as a short story. They have different tags. Shouldn’t one of them be made a parent title? Thanks.--Rosab618 03:06, 13 June 2019 (EDT)

Sorry, but no! CHAPBOOK is our special trademark and was invented for publications of only one piece of shortfiction (or one poem). It's in the vein of a COLLECTION, but for the latter you have to assemble more than one piece. The one in question has the short story as content title. Stonecreek 04:46, 13 June 2019 (EDT)

The Haunter of the Ring & Other Tales

For this title the ISFDB title reads "The Haunter of the Rings & Other Tales," but my copy (and the covers shown) all have "The Haunter of the Ring & Other Tales." Can I have someone look at this to verify the correct title? Thanks. Hifrommike 16:00, 22 June 2019 (CST)

Looks like someone fixed it. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:43, 27 June 2019 (EDT)

Jean Roberta

My author page only lists 5 of my works of short fiction, published in anthologies, and one anthology that I co-edited: Heiresses of Russ 2015, Lethe Press. I have many more spec-fic stories in print!

What is the easiest way that I can add more titles?

- Jean Roberta (username JeanRoberta) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JeanRoberta (talkcontribs) . 11:33, 28 June 2019 (EDT)

I assume you are referring to this page? I recommend starting here: Help:Getting_Started. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:03, 28 June 2019 (EDT)

Why can't I mark a chapbook as part of a series?

I'm trying to add Carnival of Terror, by Steven Otfinoski, and I think it is chapbook length (118 pages). But if I try to add it as a new chapbook, it won't let me make it an entry in the series "Make It Happen." What should I do? Thank you in advance.--Rosab618 02:20, 3 July 2019 (EDT)

Personally, I am not all at ease with this, but per our rules it is not allowed to put CHAPBOOKs into a series, it's only possible for the content title(s). Stonecreek 03:10, 3 July 2019 (EDT)
Thanks, Stonecreek. I’ll work with that.--Rosab618 02:06, 5 July 2019 (EDT)

Fred/Frederick Patten

If this Fred Patton is this Frederick Patten, then shouldn’t his editor page be marked unresponsive? MLB 19:04, 7 July 2019 (EDT)

Tagged. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 13:47, 9 July 2019 (EDT)

Alice Dryden

I would like to eliminate the Alice Dryden and Alice “Huskyteer” Dryden listings, and move them over to the Huskyteer listing, as that seems to be the name, in one variation or another, that she writes under. Is that okay? MLB 21:16, 7 July 2019 (EDT)

I'd vote 'no', since the majority of publications have the name Alice Dryden full or as part of the name, and one of the last known publications from 2017 still only has 'Alice Dryden'. Stonecreek 23:29, 7 July 2019 (EDT)
Okay, so I just switched "Huskyteer"'s fiction over to Alice Dryden's page. MLB 03:55, 8 July 2019 (EDT)

Publishers Facet / Helmond

This one might be for the Dutch experts :)

While reviewing pubs from Uitgeverij Facet, I noticed that quite a few entries in PPN have two ISBN's (example here), one for Facet (presumably for Flemish market), and one for Helmond (presumably for the Dutch market). Now, I'm wondering what the best way would be to record these publications; do they require two separate records, or rather, is it only one publication (by Facet) with two ISBN's printed on/in them? I'm inclined to go with the latter based on the fact that all covers of this and similar cases I have been able to unearth so far only have Facet on their front cover, and never (ever?) any indication there exists a separate Helmond edition. Thoughts on how to best proceed? MagicUnk 08:20, 14 July 2019 (EDT)

As we have but one field for publisher and ISBN, I am inclined to say that the publications should be entered twice: once as Dutch and once as Belgian. Otherwise it should be handled in the Note field, and which publisher then gets the publication record, the Dutch or the Belgian?--Dirk P Broer 08:26, 14 July 2019 (EDT)
Well, I guess the pub should be recorded under Facet, since that's what's printed on all covers (that I could find). Could an alternative be to have a publisher Facet-Helmond perhaps? MagicUnk 08:44, 14 July 2019 (EDT)
If it is one physical book, we should have just own record here. Multiple publishers and multiple isbns are both somewhere in the planning - it is a common scenario with the Russian books for example so pick one of the publishers and use that. Or make up a new one with the two names and add a note on both original publishers with a link. Or something. Note that we do have a notes template for the additional ISBN :) Annie 13:09, 14 July 2019 (EDT)
According to Fandata there are 7 publications co-published by Facet and Helmond (4 printings of Grieselstate and two other titles by Anthony Horowitz and Malpertuis by Jean Ray). The link you provided doesn't work, but it should be one of these. I.m.o. the best solution for now is having them under publisher 'Facet / Helmond' with the second ISBN and an explanation in the notes. --Willem 16:17, 14 July 2019 (EDT)
After I posted my question here, I managed to find the email address of Walter Soethoudt, the former owner of publisher Facet, and he confirms that they are one publication, with two ISBN's. I quote : "Één uitgave (van Facet) met twee ISBnummers", which translates as One publication (Facet) with two ISBN numbers. So, I'll enter these pubs as published by Facet, and will use the template in the notes for the second ISBN and clarify it's the one attributed to Helmond. Thanks for the suggestions. MagicUnk 06:45, 15 July 2019 (EDT)
Oh, and I've updated the link to the PPN record. Hope I've done it right this time, and this one's permanent :) MagicUnk 06:50, 15 July 2019 (EDT)
Received even more information from the publisher. The 2nd ISBN was intended for import purposes by Helmond, to be able to sell them in The Netherlands 'as if they were published by Helmond'. Go figure... MagicUnk 13:33, 15 July 2019 (EDT)

Facet vs. Facet / Clavis vs. Clavis

I am gradually entering the Facet publication catalog. While doing so, I came across a number of entries in the De Belgische Bibliografie (KBR) - such as this one - that have Facet / Clavis as publisher. As Facet has been taken over by Clavis in 2006 and continued to be an imprint of Clavis up until somewhere in 2008 (when Facet ceased to exist), I am inclined to enter the few records from the period 2006-2008, and that KBR lists as Facet / Clavis, as imprint / publisher in the ISFDB too. Is this OK? MagicUnk 06:41, 17 July 2019 (EDT)

That sounds right to me. --MartyD 08:17, 20 July 2019 (EDT)

Richard Parks

I've been updating the Richard Parks page and I can't see his picture. Is this just me?, or a problem with home website? If it's the home website I can replace the picture with one from Amazon. MLB 23:09, 14 August 2019 (EDT)

I cannot see it either (from an Irish Wi-fi so it is not just a US thing). Annie 00:19, 15 August 2019 (EDT)
I couldn't see it either. I grabbed the image from Amazon and cropped it for use here. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 13:45, 15 August 2019 (EDT)

Lan Wright's Space Born

I am currently reading Lan Wright's 'Space Born.' Your entry lists this as a variant title for 1/2 of the Ace double M-103, titled 'Exile from Xanadu.' However, it's more than just a different title: 'Space Born' is both a revised and expanded version of 'Exile from Xanadu.' I have copies of both, and am seeing changes in the text, and extra material as well. Does this warrant 'Space Born' being an all together different book? The Wikipedia article on Wright doesn't list 'Space Born' at all. I'm reading the hardcover copy, copyright 1964, published in 1966 by The Science Fiction Book Club (by arrangement with Herbert Jenkins), London. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smitty66 (talkcontribs) . 08:26, 20 August 2019 (EDT)

How significant are the changes? Is it just a few words here and there, or was it significantly changed and/or expanded? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 13:58, 3 September 2019 (EDT)

The Dead Man of Varley Grange

The first publication date in the data base for the anonymous story 'The Dead Man of Varley Grange' (1878) appears to be an error. The text mentioned that a character was killed in the battle of Islandhwana which did not take place until February 1879. Probably only a misprint? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mog Lair (talkcontribs) . 23:28, 2 September 2019 (EDT)

I'm assuming you mean this story? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 13:10, 3 September 2019 (EDT)

Frankenstein's Daughters

I have a question. I recently read the book Frankenstein's Daughters by Jane Donawerth and it is chock full critical reviews. I'd like to list them on this site, but, I hesitate to do so. I've seen others do this, but is there a protocol for such things? MLB 18:05, 8 September 2019 (EDT)

I do not see why not - if they are reviews of "our books", we want them showing up on the title pages of our books. As long as you promise to also add the books it reviews that we do not have yet and connect the reviews :) Non-fiction books that are essentially collections/anthologies of essays and/or reviews have those essays/reviews as their contents in the same way a non-fiction magazine or fanzine does. Annie 18:13, 8 September 2019 (EDT)

Translator credit

I'd hoped to update a number of translation notes and wondered about how to phrase the translator in the Tr template for:

  • a known and specified translator
  • a known but unspecified translator (i.e. the translation text matches that of a publication with a named translator)
  • an unknown translator (uncredited and unknown to research - to this point)
  • a different unknown translator from above with a different translation (uncredited and unknown to research - to this point)
  • an undetermined translator (meaning the publication may be any of the above and the editor did not know or specify)

Just within Jules Verne translations there is "an anonymous hand", "an uncredited hand", "an uncredited translator", "an undetermined translator", and so on for a total of 20 variations. I don't plan to clean up the thousands of titles, but thought I could make Jules Verne a model for trying for consistency. ../Doug H 23:43, 10 September 2019 (EDT)

I use
  • "an uncreduted hand" when I know it is not credited in the book and I have no idea who the translator might be
  • "an unknown hand" when I am not sure if it is credited and I have no idea who it is (and I just cannot find it)
  • "an anonymous hand" for when the translation is considered anonymous (especially the classics).
  • "Tr|name" if the translator is known, regardless of the source (with a note after that if the sourcing is especially unclear - so not Look Inside, not one of the external ID, not a verifier note and so on).
And yes - there are a lot of variations - it had been a long project. Easy to pick them up later though so not too bothered to clean them up.
If you do not like these - chose your own I guess - we will reconcile them all one day. All of those unknowns and uncredited ones will require another look one day anyway (maybe we can find the actual translator later)... Annie 00:18, 11 September 2019 (EDT)
There are quite a number of entries that put the various unknown forms in the "Tr|...| format. I see you don't. I think it aids in the location of entries, is there a reason you prefer not to? ../Doug H 08:30, 11 September 2019 (EDT)
Can you restate the question - not sure what though are asking? I have added more unknowns and uncredited than anyone - if it is a translation it needs a Tr. :) If you mean that we have more than one pattern - yeah, I am pretty sure I changed mine as well. I am just not going to spend the time to switch between two different unknown patterns in a title. Annie 11:16, 11 September 2019 (EDT)
In your examples, the first three had "xxxx", but only when the translator was known did you use "Tr|name". This suggested you would not use "Tr|an unknown hand". My advanced search for title with notes containing "Tr|un", "Tr|an " and variants yielded over 10,000 hits. My 'question' then would be whether yours were in that count or not. ../Doug H 15:24, 11 September 2019 (EDT)
Ah, sorry. When I said "an uncreduted hand" and so on, I meant "Tr|an uncreduted hand" - sorry, I was just explaining my wording :) As of this morning there are less than 500 translations that have some notes but do not have a Tr template. I had been hitting these hard in the last year or so we have a report) :) Annie 15:32, 11 September 2019 (EDT)
You may want to hold off on the Jules Verne titles - I see Dick Sands, Five Weeks in a Balloon, Journey to the Center of the Earth, On the Track, The Mysterious Island. ../Doug H 16:51, 11 September 2019 (EDT)
 :) I had been skipping them - these ~420 still on the list above are the "stuck and need a LOT more research" :) So I am hitting the "no notes at all" ones at the moment. If something is on that list, I still think we CAN find the translator - someone just need to do the heavy lifting :) Annie 16:58, 11 September 2019 (EDT)

(unindent) My plan is to use

  • {{Tr | translator name}} - on titles with known translators. I believe I have text for all these translations.
  • {{Tr | an anonymous hand}} - with titles where the translation text is known but the translator is not. I.e. a classic - lots of research and no result. Probably English or old.
  • {{Tr | an uncredited hand}} - with titles that have unknown text but can be verified as not having a translator. I.e. like classic but research unknown. Probably non-English and recent.
  • {{Tr | an unknown hand}} - with titles that have not specified a translator or text, i.e. the dumping ground. Verified pubs in here will result in contact.

../Doug H 12:26, 12 September 2019 (EDT)

Sounds like a plan and pretty much matches what I do. No spaces around the "|", right (in case you did not add them here just for visibility)? :) Annie 12:29, 12 September 2019 (EDT)
So are we giving up on crediting translators per the pub? If the pub doesn't have a translation credit, shouldn't it always be uncredited? If the translator is known via a secondary source, a note added in addition (that can later be turned into a variant when the database supports translators)? Or are we going to treat them the same as cover artists (where if we can identify the artist per a secondary source, we add the credit to the pub with a pub note providing the source)? When doing the templates, we should be keeping in mind that the long term goal is move them into a database field. If we're loosing information on whether the pub actual credits the translator or not (which is what the above suggestion would do), how are we going to handle it down the road? -- JLaTondre (talk) 16:44, 12 September 2019 (EDT)
We already miss that information for most of the credits we had been saving all over the system through the years - most of the moving from notes to templates was really changing existing text and making sure that all attached editions belong to the title - some editors had added the translators in the system with notes for where they are coming from, some just added them into the system.
It is a separate kettle of fish and a discussion that we need to have if when we build the system, we want to do it like we do the authors or always go for the canonical form of the translator (I think that we should go for the canonical name on the title level, with notes in the pub level for specifics if desired - but that is just me - there is no much point having the same named translation by X to have 10 variants because the publishers liked to credit weirdly or the translator got married 4 times and the credits go to all the names). Publication notes still can (and sometimes do) have the notes about the exact credits (if someone had added them there). Noone is removing information that we already have.
So at this point, any way we can find to verify that two variants are actually the same text so we can merge (or that they are separate so we can unmerge) them are welcome - which was one of the intended reasons for trying to figure out the translators. As for moving to the DB - yes, we will. One day. The speed we are moving at, it may even be this century. In the meantime we add more and more translations and delaying the process of figuring out our bad merges (if which there were many) does not help us. Annie 17:11, 12 September 2019 (EDT)
My intent is to document for Jules Verne, at the title level, enough information about the translation (translator and text) that any future publications that are added can be placed with like translations. And to ensure that the existing publications are consistent. There are multiple uncredited translations of JV's works and I'd like to see them distinguished. Publications notes could and probably should document the translator reference and if necessary note the match was based on the text. As for all the other authors, titles and publications, at best I hoped it would serve as a model for discussion on how well it works. ../Doug H 23:31, 12 September 2019 (EDT)

1 Novel, 1 ISBN, 2 volumes

Need some help on how to best record Nevelen van Avalon, which is a single novel with 1 ISBN, but has been published as two separate pb pockets. Do I serialize these two? See also here, which is even worse, as for that one the novel has been published in three separate volumes. Any help appreciated. TIA! MagicUnk 12:22, 13 September 2019 (EDT)

Common with the French. We add the books separately and variant them to the full novel (and add notes). Serialization as used now (and per the rules) is only for magazines. See this one for an example. The one ISBN is not a problem - just add notes explaining the case. Annie 12:44, 13 September 2019 (EDT)
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