User talk:Loviatar


(Difference between revisions)
Jump to: navigation, search
(The Fairy Ring)
(The Fairy Ring: continued)
Line 729: Line 729:
::I noticed the misspelled name & HTML errors when I submitted. Will correct. Making Nora Archibald Smith the canonical is a great idea, I can take care of that if you like. I know the acknowledgements only mentioned a few sources (& got 2 wrong), will mention add comment about uncredited sources. I spent last nite checking the stories against different publications to make sure I had the right translations/source materials before submission. I will move the detail notes to the anthology page after I'm finished adding the stories. I can add the stories of the other Wiggin/Smith fairy books (+ the Talking Beasts anthology) if you like. Thank you very much for your help & suggestions.[[User:Loviatar|Loviatar]] 06:36, 12 October 2019 (EDT)
::I noticed the misspelled name & HTML errors when I submitted. Will correct. Making Nora Archibald Smith the canonical is a great idea, I can take care of that if you like. I know the acknowledgements only mentioned a few sources (& got 2 wrong), will mention add comment about uncredited sources. I spent last nite checking the stories against different publications to make sure I had the right translations/source materials before submission. I will move the detail notes to the anthology page after I'm finished adding the stories. I can add the stories of the other Wiggin/Smith fairy books (+ the Talking Beasts anthology) if you like. Thank you very much for your help & suggestions.[[User:Loviatar|Loviatar]] 06:36, 12 October 2019 (EDT)
::: I plan to add the five Library of Fairy Literature works (all anthologies probably, but I have not confirmed) and their first editions, with publication info that I find in library records and contemporary newspapers; no story Contents (only introduction, illustrations, etc). Given you are at hand to continue, I plan to submit all three today (or submit two and ask whether Talking Beasts qualifies).
::: My suggestion about where to locate detail information about the stories, such as your notes in the 1909 publication record, is based on plan that multiple publications will be in the database, and I believe ISFDB should avoid repetition of big blocks of Notes in multiple records. Of course, one publication record may link to another publication record that contains such a block of Notes, rather than copy-paste them.
::: Anyway, for this series I will add some later publications myself, including the available Project Gutenberg ebooks (all except #2 Magic Casements), and presumably the Gutenberg source editions where those are not the first editions. This week, not today. --[[User:Pwendt|Pwendt]]|[[User talk:Pwendt|talk]] 15:13, 12 October 2019 (EDT)

Revision as of 19:13, 12 October 2019



Hello, Loviatar, and welcome to the ISFDB Wiki! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

Note: Image uploading isn't entirely automated. You're uploading the files to the wiki which will then have to be linked to the database by editing the publication record.

Please be careful in editing publications that have been primary verified by other editors. See Help:How to verify data#Making changes to verified pubs. But if you have a copy of an unverified publication, verifying it can be quite helpful. See Help:How to verify data for detailed information.

I hope you enjoy editing here! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will insert your name and the date. If you need help, check out the community portal, or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! -- JLaTondre (talk) 08:53, 1 January 2018 (EST)

Dealing With Variants & Translations

I'm had to reject several of your recent submissions:

  • The Three Goats Named Bruse; or, The Three Billy-Goats Gruff: The language field indicates what language that title in that particular publication (or publications) appeared. It seems unlikely that it would have appeared with an English title, but Norwegian text in The Mammoth Book of Fairy Tales. If you are trying to indicate it's a translation, we use variants for that. You would go to the title record and click the "Make This Title a Variant Title or Pseudonymous Work". In the new screen, you would enter the Norwegian title and set the language to Norwegian.
  • Le sifflet enchanté: This record is for the original French version. We also have a record for an English version published as The Magic Whistle. If it has also been published as "The Enchanted Whistle", then you should enter a new publication that covers the book that had that version along with its contents and then once that is accepted, variant the new story to the existing original French version. Also, please note that the Transliterated Title field is for converting (transliterating) a title containing non-Latin characters to all Latin characters. It is not a translation field.
  • Belinda and Bellamant: This is for publications with the title "Belinda and Bellamant". Since you say it appeared in "The Mammoth Book of Fairy Tales" as "The Bells of Carillon-Land", then you would edit that book and add that story. Once approved, you would variant the new story title to the existing "Belinda and Bellamant" record.
  • The Enchanted Watch: Again, this is for the English version. If it also appeared in French, than a translation would need to be entered. I'm not sure if you are saying in your note that Lang's story was translated to French or Lang translated a French story.

We do appreciate your submission. ISFDB has some conventions that need learning, but everything should be in the help links in the welcome message above. We hope you will continue to contribute. And please let us know if you have any questions (ISFDB:Help desk is a good resource for asking). -- JLaTondre (talk) 09:23, 1 January 2018 (EST)

I will try to add the info for the Three Billy Goats Gruff from the Wikipedia entry on the story. Loviatar 22:25, 6 January 2018 (EST)

Le sifflet enchanté

For "Le sifflet enchanté", I see that that "The Enchanted Whistle" is already in The Mammoth Book of Fairy Tales. I have varianted the two records so the English version now shows as a translation of the French version. If you have The Mammoth Book of Fairy Tales and it states who the translator is, we record that information in the notes of the translated version. So we'd appreciate it if you could edit the English title and add the translator. We have a template for that. Using {{TR|NAME}} in the notes fields, will result in "Translated by NAME". -- JLaTondre (talk) 09:34, 1 January 2018 (EST)

The Enchanted Watch

Re this submission: Please don't submit blank edits like this. The wiki should be used for this type of thing. Either by responding to discussions like the above or by posting on ISFDB:Community Portal.

With respect to the comment ("This story was translated by a colleague of Andrew Lang's, the story itself is credited to Deulin.") itself. What is your source for the translation credit? Information should always be sourced where possible. As for the credit portion, I'm not sure what you are getting at. It is already shown as credited to Deulin in The Mammoth Book of Fairy Tales. If you are referring to The Green Fairy Book, that is a bit of an odd one. The way it is laid out, the credits are to Lang with a source statement after each story. It also gets into when does a translation stop being a translation and become its own work. We don't have a perfect way of handling some of these edge cases. I'll try to improve the note. Do you know the original French title? I'd like to set it up as a translation. -- JLaTondre (talk) 09:47, 6 January 2018 (EST)

I found the original French title & that it was collected by a Louis Leger & published in Contes Populaires Slaves in 1882. I think Andrew Lang made a mistake as I couldn't find it listed in any of Charles Deulin 3 collections of stories. I tried to add this info but had it completely rejected for reasons I found strange. This happened with other stories from the Blue Fairy Book I did research on. I think the person accidentally misread my entries.Loviatar 23:25, 9 January 2018 (EST)

The White Cat

Regarding this submission:

  • What is the source for the date? Do you know where it was originally published?
  • We would not list "(adapted by)" as part of the author's name. That is not a credit, but editorial description.

Based on the author change, I have rejected the edit. If you can answer the first part, I'll update the record appropriately. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 10:05, 6 January 2018 (EST)

The Old, Old Fairy Tales

I'm holding you addition of The Old, Old Fairy Tales. This record has multiple issues:

  • What is the source of the data? When entering a publication, the source of the information must be given as stated on the entry screen.
  • Author names should be names only and not contain editorial information.
  • Credits should be as they appear in the pub. Are the individual stories actually credited in on their respective title pages in this edition? That would be unusual for a book of this period. For example, for the A. L. Burt version (which has different contents), there are no credits on the individual stories. As such, they would all be credited to "Mrs. Valentine" and notes used to explain the origins.
  • Publisher should only be the publishers name and not include the city.
  • You submitted the publication twice. I have rejected the duplicate.

If you could please answer the sourcing and credits information (by editing this page and responding to these posts), I will make the necessary fixes. If not, I will be forced to reject the submission. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 10:30, 6 January 2018 (EST)

I read the book online and it did list the authors on the contents page. I noticed The Three Bears was the same version as the one in The Mammoth Book of Fairy Tales, so is most likely Sarah Baker's. I saw the A.L. Burt edition, but as Frederick Warne was Mrs. Valentine's primary publisher as noted on her Wikipedia page, that is most likely the original edition. Also being a British author it makes sense it was published in England first. I never heard of Mme. Leprince de Beaumont referred to as La Princesse, will add that as a name variant. Will do same for Mlle. de la Force(Mdlle must be an old contraction of Mademoiselle).Loviatar 22:22, 6 January 2018 (EST)
I found the scans for the Frederick Warne versions. There are actually two, one with color plates and one without. I accepted you addition, fixed it, and then cloned the other version. You can find the results here. In addition to the corrections mentioned above, I made the following other changes:
  • Changed the type from COLLECTION to ANTHOLOGY. We use collection for stories by a single author & anthology for stories by multiple authors.
  • When a story is not credited, we use "uncredited". Anonymous is only used if it is specifically credited as Anonymous in the publication.
  • Author names with initials should have a space between the initials.
I will also add the A. L. Burt edition.
Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 09:57, 7 January 2018 (EST)

The Fortress Unvanquishable, Save for Sacnoth

I will update The Mammoth Book of Fairy Tales to use the comma version of this story. However, it is easier to fix the existing entry instead of adding a new entry. As such, I have rejected your edit (including the duplicate). Since you state that you have the pub in the moderator notes, please verify it. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 10:36, 6 January 2018 (EST)

Sorry about the duplications, having computer issues. I just started adding stuff so I'm still getting used to the editing procedure. It was really weird that just after I started adding to the entry on The Mammoth Book of Fairy Tales, someone else suddenly got interested & finished adding the contents. The story of The Cotton-Wool Princess is listed incorrectly in the book as by Luigi Capuani instead of Capuana. I've been trying to get information on The Enchanted Watch by Charles Deulin, but trying to verify has been difficult. In the note to Andrew Lang's Green Fairy Book, he states the translations are mainly by his wife and others, but who did what isn't so clear. Dumas' The Enchanted Whistle was listed as such in a book called The Golden Fairy Book I saw online, but I believe no author or translators are listed-very frustrating! This has been a lot of fun though. I have a lot of collections of ghost stories, mysteries & fairy tales so will be doing more work. It's amazing all the stories listed here.Loviatar 20:12, 6 January 2018 (EST)

The Mammoth Book of Fairy Tales' Charles Perrault stories

I'm not sure what you are trying to do with the additions and removals I have on hold. Your note states "Stories actually from Andrew Lang's Blue Fairy Book of 1889:, but the edits don't relate to that. With the Sleeping Beauty one, you're adding back exactly what you removed. -- JLaTondre (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2018 (EST)

I guess I get too eager doing these story changes. Sorry for not waiting till the other edits were approved or rejected. I like to have everything right.Loviatar 21:50, 7 January 2018 (EST)

Victorian Ghost Stories & Victorian Horror Stories

I have accepted your additions of Victorian Ghost Stories & Victorian Horror Stories, but have corrected them. As these are re-tellings, Mike Stocks is the author of these versions and that is who should be credited. They are not the same stories as the original versions & should not be varianted to the originals. -- JLaTondre (talk) 17:03, 12 January 2018 (EST)

I'm glad the original authors were recognized in the notes, but listing the adaptor or the translator as the sole author I don't think is altogether fair. Many of the titles in these 2 collections were changed so except for a few cases, you wouldn't find the story. & in the case of Samuel Savage, since I can't find anything about him, I don't even know if The Cat is the original title. It's the same with the Andrew Lang fairy books, be nice to know where the stories came from & that he didn't translate any but 2 & hated people thinking he came up with all these great folk tales. If you going list books solely by there adaptor/translator than Tolstoy/ Dumas/Jose Saramago/Tove Janssen/Brothers Grimm etc would have short credit lists like Asbjornsen/Moe who only have 1 that I added even though they're responsible for at least 100 stories & legends. You should be able to click whether it's author/editor/translator/adaptor. I like to research some of the stuff I read (which is how I discovered this great site) & hate having to spend time googling & going thru books online just to get some simple information. Thanks for all you work though. I don't mean to cause any trouble.
We are a bibliographic site. We credit per the pub. The title and author should be entered per the pub (with some limited, specialized exceptions). In this case, the story credits are all by Stocks ("based on" is not an authorship credit). Other adaptations will actually credit the original author ("by ... and ..."). In that case, we would enter both names, but still not variant the stories (examples). Varianting is for the same story under a different title; not a variance in the story itself. We don't have a mechanism to support variant works (other than translations). You can "link" back to the original by using HTML in the notes if you wish (example). While it would be great to have the software support more relationships between works, that is a lot of work and we have a significant backlog of requested enhancements with a small development team (mostly one person). Until that happens, when you merge / variant titles, you are saying it is the exact same story in all of those pubs. That would be highly inaccurate for adaptations. -- JLaTondre (talk) 08:31, 13 January 2018 (EST)

Roger Caras' Treasury of Great Cat Stories

For your proposed addition of Roger Caras' Treasury of Great Cat Stories, are all the stories listed speculative fiction? If some of them are not, they should not be included in the listing. When a publication is not strictly a genre publication, only the genre stories should be interested (though we will make an exception for non-genre stories by significant genre authors). We have some older pubs in the database that need cleaned up, but we're trying to get better at holding to the rules on this. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 08:46, 13 January 2018 (EST)

Outside of the essays, the majority of the stories are genre(the best being the fantasy stories by Henry Slesar & Joan Aiken. Outside of the new authors, only 4 or 5 stories plus the essays are non-genre. I think a lot of people like cat stories though, even if they aren't fantasy. I got the book 27 years ago from my parents & even though I don't remember some of them(wish I could forget that Poe story tho!) it's part of my cat collection. Besides, the cover has the picture of a tuxedo cat & I've had 2(including my current boy who I swear can teleport himself!).
The story by Julian Ralph is almost like a fairy tale except there's no magic involved, so not sure if that would qualify as genre. The non-genre ones by authors in the database I'll note as such on their page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Loviatar (talkcontribs) .
I have approved the addition, but have made the following changes:
  • I removed any story that was not clearly genre (already in database, etc.). If there are any other genre stories, you can add them back & update the pub notes appropriately. In the future, if you only submit eligible stories to begin with, it will make it easier.
  • LCCN numbers should go into the external identifiers section. Catalog number is for publisher catalog numbers (typically pre-ISBN). However, in this case, the LCCN is for a different edition than you have. As such I have removed it and cloned the publication to create a new entry for that version.
  • Generic titles like "Introduction" or "Foreword" should be disambiguated with the publication's title (this is one of our variations from recording exactly as per the publication).
Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 17:08, 15 January 2018 (EST)


Hello, when you add links at title level, please be more precise. In the case of Napoleon and the Spectre you just added This is strictly useless for a "normal" user that will have to browse the whole site to find the data (supposing a certain familiarity with it). I've deleted the link. Hauck 05:42, 20 January 2018 (EST)

Thanks for the info. I wasn't too sure if i needed to add the whole web listing, I'll be sure to do that in future. Loviatar 01:43, 22 January 2018 (EST)

Andrew Lang's Fairy Tale Anthologies

I have rejected your edits that impact the credits for these anthologies. As you have been notified before, we credit as per the pub. Your proposed changes are not the way the original publications credited the stories. However, I recognize that our current entries are not correct either. I have opened this discussion to obtain community input on best way forward. -- JLaTondre (talk) 19:27, 25 January 2018 (EST)

I'm glad this has been put up for discussion as I've gotten a different response from another moderator. As I mentioned before too Andrew Lang was the editor and selected the tales to be published. He was only responsible for 2 stories and they are credited in the books. This is what he stated in his prefaces, this is also in the entry on wikipedia & the Oxford Companion to Children's Literature & Oxford Companion to Fairy Tales. Anyways I won't do any more research into the stories until there's some clarification.Loviatar 02:45, 26 January 2018 (EST)
Yes, but the credits you haven trying to change them to are not the credits used in the books. If a pub uses "J. Smith", we record it that way. We don't make it "John Smith" because that's the author's fullname. If there is no credit (which is the case for several of these), we use "uncedited". If the real author is known, then we use variants to show the real author. But the credits are per the book. -- JLaTondre (talk) 07:15, 26 January 2018 (EST)

My copy is by Dover & is a facsimile reprint of the original 1889 edition. The cover states "edited by" Andrew Lang. The preface states where the stories came from(the Perrault were from a 18th century version & not new translations). Almost every story credits the source at the end. That's how I first heard of Madame de Villeneuve. Beauty and the Beast is my favorite fairy tale & until I got the Blue Fairy Book I had no idea it was not original to Madame Leprince de Beaumont. This book helped inspire me into researching and collecting(as a hobby) fairy tales and folk tales from around the world. Besides the Fairy Books, I have at least 30 other collections-I'm currently trying to get get the original hardcover editions of Oxford's Myths & Legends series. I also like researching the sources, which is why I'm still trying to figure out one German collection Lang used. Most of the collections I figured out what country/area they covered but this one has baffled me for a long time(I don't recall it right now & would have to check my books). I don't know if 1 or more editions of the Fairy Books cut out the information on sources, but you even wikipedia usually states who Lang credited. Anyways, I'll wait and see what the consensus is. Interested in what Bluesman will say.Loviatar 09:00, 26 January 2018 (EST)

You are still not getting it. In this edit, you tried to change the credit to "Henry B. Wheatley". That form never appears in the Blue Fairy Book. The preface uses "Mr. Wheatley" and that story has no footnote for the source. You are trying to use a credit that is not in the pub. That is not the way ISFDB works. We match the credits in the pub (in this case, we would use "Mr. Wheatley"). You are bringing some good information to light and I hope you continue to do so. However, you need to wrap your head around the idea that our ideal is to match the pub. -- JLaTondre (talk) 15:05, 26 January 2018 (EST)

Doctor Nikola, Master Criminal

I accepted your addition of this pub:

  • This pub was already in the database. Since you had additional content then what was in the existing record, I went ahead and accepted the new one & deleted the old. However, please do an ISBN search prior to submitting new pubs.
  • I changed the title to "Doctor Nikola, Master Criminal", based on your publication note. We use the title page form as the canonical title of a publication.
  • I copied over the price from the previous entry and sourced it to Amazon since you did not enter a price.
  • I copied over the Amazon image URL from the previous entry. Feel free to replace with a local scan if you plan on uploading one.

Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 16:46, 28 January 2018 (EST)

When I checked Boothby's entry I was looking under the Dr. Nikola series & didn't see an omnibus or collection listed,so I didn't think it was listed. I think this book might have been listed based on pre-publication info. There's a few other books in the series posted without contents based on pre-pub stuff as well. When I can find more books for my library, I'll add the info.Loviatar 01:14, 29 January 2018 (EST)

A good portion of our content was automatically imported. There is a bot that trawls Amazon for new pubs. The data on Amazon is better than nothing, but it can fall short in many respects. -- JLaTondre (talk) 07:26, 29 January 2018 (EST)

The Blue Fairy Book

I have updated the first edition of The Blue Fairy Book. Please give it a look and let me know if you see any issues. If you have any more information on the title Lang didn't credit, that would be good. We can variant them to the proper credited as needed. Also, please check out Mr. Wheatley. Based on the prior information you provided, I believe I linked to the correct person on Wikipedia, but it would be good to confirm. If all looks good, I will start updating the other editions & then begin working on the other volumes in the series. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 20:49, 28 January 2018 (EST)

Other than maybe varianting a few titles, The Blue Fairy Book listing looks awesome! As a moderator I'm sure you have a ton of stuff, so with your permission I would love to do the other titles. I have the whole series as Dover books. I know some titles won't have much(I think the Half-Chick is only listed as a Spanish story) & I could do research for those which I'd put in the notes only. I know one German source Lang he accidentally had 2 different first names(Mite Kremnitz[?]. I have lots of time for this(being unemployed sucks) so this is really fun.Loviatar 01:07, 29 January 2018 (EST)

Sure, go ahead. I appreciate the updates you made to find the original sources. Thanks! -- JLaTondre (talk) 07:27, 29 January 2018 (EST)

I just finished doing The Red Fairy Book using your work on The Blue Fairy Book as a template. Wish Lang had been a little more careful with listing the sources- Madame d'Aulnoy also listed as Mme. d'Aulnoy and Mdme.d'Aulnoy, and Mite Kremnitz as Nite Kremnitz and Mite Thremnitz! Anyways, hope my work is okay. If approved will variant/add original French/German/Norse titles.Loviatar 05:28, 31 January 2018 (EST)

Miss May Ken(d)all

Hello, I just rejected your submission for making a pseudonym. Don't worry, it is just likely that this name variant was introduced via a typo in the first place. So it's better to change the title (which I'll do). Thanks for finding this, though. Stonecreek 02:59, 31 January 2018 (EST)

French Capitalization

Hello, when you create a new title record in french, please respect the standard french capitaliztion: only the first word of the title is capitalized except for the "proper" nouns (places, names, personnified concepts). For example La Véritable Histoire du Petit Chaperon d'Or should be entered as La véritable histoire du Petit Chaperon d'Or. Note that such are the marvels of the written french that, in this case, there may be endless debates to determine if "Petit Chaperon d'Or" is a name (capitalized) or a simple description (not capitalized). Thanks. Hauck 03:36, 2 February 2018 (EST)

Thanks. I try to copy the title as published in the original book, but I'll try to be more careful. Loviatar 04:06, 2 February 2018 (EST)
In fact you should not "copy the title as published in the original book" but regularize the capitalization if need be as french publishers are very creative in this regard.Hauck 04:20, 2 February 2018 (EST)
Please take my remarks into account, I don't want to have to correct all the french titles that you propose (e.g. Le Petit Soldat which is quite jarring to a french reader). Hauck 01:45, 3 February 2018 (EST)
I'm sorry, I don't mean to cause distress! I usually go by the title as listed in the book's table of contents(& these old French books always have them at the back it seems), & this was how it was Le petit soldat was. I checked to make sure all the titles weren't all capitalize & they were not so I thought it was okay. It gets confusing with capitalization sometimes, like when one book is titled Contes du Roi Cambrinus and other is roi. Again I apologize. My French is merde.Loviatar 02:00, 3 February 2018 (EST)
As I wrote above, do not take into account how the publisher capitalized, use the "official" regularization.Hauck 09:15, 3 February 2018 (EST)

Legal Name

The legal name field should be entered as "LAST, FIRST MIDDLE(S)". That's different than all of our other fields so it does tend to catch people. -- JLaTondre (talk) 15:07, 2 February 2018 (EST)

The Green Fairy Book

Since in your edit, you state "I don't actually own the 1892 original book, I have the Dover reprint", you should not have verified the original. It is okay to enter the contents based on the reprint, but not verify it. Instead, clone the original (use the "Clone This Pub" option on the 1892 edition) and enter the information for your Dover reprint. That is the one you should verify. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 15:20, 2 February 2018 (EST)

Okay, thanks. I wasn't sure about the cloning, I'll do that with the next book. I'll also try to remember about last name first for legal names. Loviatar 23:41, 2 February 2018 (EST)

"The Enchanted Watch" and Deulin vs. Leger

Hi, and a belated welcome. I have a question about your proposed variant of "The Enchanted Watch". I could not confirm how The Mammoth Book of Fairy Tales actually credits the story, but Locus credits Charles Deulin and notes it is the story from The Green Fairy Book with Andrew Lang as translator. I can see The Green Fairy Book on Amazon, and the Look Inside shows the story is credited there to "Deulin" (I don't know where we got Lang as the author in our record for that book -- that seems like a mistake).

While I do not doubt your Internet Archive find of the story in Leger's anthology, what evidence do you have that the story collected there isn't Deulin's? It looks to me like Deulin pre-dated Leger by two decades, so it is not an unreasonable possibility that Leger had Deulin's work available and incorporated it. If something like that were the case, and we had a book crediting the story to Leger, we would make the variant the other way around (keep the Deulin credit as canonical/parent, and make the Leger credit the variant).

Thanks. --MartyD 11:26, 3 February 2018 (EST)

The Green Fairy Book credits it as Deulin. That was updated the other day as part of the clean-up of the Coloured Fairy Books (see this discussion). I have removed the misleading note on the title record for the The Mammoth Book of Fairy Tales version and varianted the The Green Fairy Book version to that one. -- JLaTondre (talk) 12:01, 3 February 2018 (EST)

Hi MartyD! When I was submitting titles for "The Mammoth Book of Fairy Tales" I tried to get the original titles for the old non-English stories, so I went thru Deulin's collections(Tales of a Beer-Drinker & Tales of Cambrinus, King of Beer) & couldn't find anything resembling The Enchanted Watch. The story's wikipedia page listed Sebillot, but googling the title I found it in Leger's collection & even though my French isn't that great, it matched the story. He credits it as a Bohemian tale he collected from someone whose name I couldn't read. The hero's name is Jenik, which doesn't sound French, & the story isn't in short chapters like Deulin's other stories(like The Little Soldier). If someone could find it in Deulin's works, I'd like to know. Lang sometime's made mistakes-like leaving out credits or getting a name wrong(Mrs. Mite Kremnitz's name is misspelled for BOTH stories-so this could be a mistake. I've been doing a ton of research for these stories & this is what I found. It would be great if I'm proven wrong.Loviatar 02:51, 4 February 2018 (EST)

I found another credit for this story, to Paul Sébillot (see and -- whether this is authoritative, I cannot judge). What's interesting about that is while Lang makes no mention of Deulin in his preface to The Green Fairy Book, that preface does mention "M. Sébillot" (although I think some of the other stories are his). --MartyD 09:09, 6 February 2018 (EST)

I wonder if those articles is the reason wikipedia listed the story as Sebillot's. I know Lang didn't credit Deulin in the preface, but did credit the story The Little Soldier and that one is in short chapters like those in The Red Fairy Book. I'm currently trying to find the original title for The Snuff-Box so maybe I'll come up with something. I need to find a better site for translating French & German to English, but when I googled Le mondre enchantee & the name of the hero Jenik Leger's version popped up & I don't think peasants in Bohemia had even heard of Deulin or Sebillot(sorry I don't add the accents, I have to change the languagge on my tablet & it's a real pain). Anyways, thanks for the info-I need all I can get!Loviatar 04:42, 7 February 2018 (EST)

Ok, what I think we should do for now is cancel your proposed variant to a new, Leger-credited title and incorporate the information from that submission and above into the notes on this title. Then we will have preserved everything in a place where it's easy to find. We can revisit recording other titles/credits as we come across more definitive information or other publications. How does that sound? --MartyD 12:49, 7 February 2018 (EST)

Sounds great. I'm taking a break from Sebillot & working on stories from the Cabinet des Fees going thru, the volumes(of which there are 40!) verifying stories so that's going to take some time. Thanks for all your help.Loviatar 03:49, 8 February 2018 (EST)

I rejected the variant and added a summary of the info here to the one credited to Charles Deulin -- The Enchanted Watch. Feel free to have your way with those notes. :-) --MartyD 17:50, 9 February 2018 (EST)

Thanks. I think I'll just leave it for now, going to move on to the next Fairy Book. I actually found a story in the Pink one that Lang credits Leger as a source, at least it has all the necessary details!

Beauty and the Beast

I have your variant of Beauty and the Beast on hold (I actually put it on hold a couple of days ago and then forgot about it). According to multiple sources (like the note at your proposed parent and Wikipedia's de Villeneuve page), the original "La Belle et la Bête" was of novel length (over 40k words). The version in "The Blue Fairy Book" is only 7168 words. According to Wikipedia's Beauty and the Beast page, both de Beaumont and Lang's version were abridged. Do you have anything to indicate the original was not novel length? -- JLaTondre (talk) 19:28, 5 February 2018 (EST)

I didn't know til I just rechecked that de Villeneuve's story was called a novel on Wikipedia. I had thought it was a short story as it was part of a collection, but after reading Brian Stableford's essay in The New York Review of Books heard it was apparently 40,000 words long, which I believe constitutes a novella on this website (until now I wasn't sure of the difference between a novella & a novelette). This essay was written in conjunction with the publication of an the collection or omnibus of The Naiads & Beauty and the Beast edited by Stableford, where he wrote The Naiads was 90,000 words long(This book is listed on ISFDB & I'm wondering about buying it!) . I know The Blue Fairy Book's version is much shorter, but as de Villeneuve's had some eroticism unsuitable for children besides the length, I'm not surprised. If the moderators wish to leave it as a novel it's all the same to me. That original collection both of these stories came from must have been really long though!Loviatar 04:28, 7 February 2018 (EST)

I left the two records separate, but I beefed up the notes explaining the situation. Thanks! -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:43, 8 February 2018 (EST)

Hermann Kletke submissions

Hi, I approved you submission for Hermann Kletke's stories. You provided as your data source in the moderator note, which is ok, but it's generally be more helpful if you post the full link to a publication on an external website. This saves moderators the time to search for the publication again, in the case search again. ;) Thanks, Jens Hitspacebar 11:51, 9 February 2018 (EST)

Sorry about that, so used to putting that on the webpage line. I'm finding the Kletke stories more complicated, just trying to read the notes about sources for the German so I'm going back & forth between different online readers. Wish Andrew Lang had done the sources better! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Loviatar (talkcontribs) .
No problem. There are now three stories left which need varianting. Are you going to do it? Jens Hitspacebar 12:19, 9 February 2018 (EST)
Working on that right now. I have variant another tale to Kletke as well. Someone put The War of the Wolf & the Fox as a variant for a Grimm tale, but they're completely different. It's from Kletke as well.
I can' seem to find the original of The Biter Bit in Kletke's 3-volume Marchensaal. I did find in the first volume the story Die Schlange, an adaptation of Basile's Lo serpo. This is probably the version Lang had translated as The Enchanted Snake in The Green Fairy Book. Not sure if I should break the original variant & link it to Kletke or not.Loviatar 01:30, 10 February 2018 (EST)
There are still a serveral issues with your submissions, which all involve incorrect variants:
This submission made The War of the Wolf and the Fox by Grimm a variant of Der Krieg des Wolfes und des Fuchses by Hermann Kletke. However, your note to the moderator says that "This is not the Grimm story The Wolf & The Fox". If that's the case you must not variant them. We only create variants for:
  • the same work under a different title
  • the same work under a pseudonym (or an author name variation with a different spelling, shortened name, etc)
  • for the same work as a translation into another language
The solution for this case depends on the authorship of The War of the Wolf and the Fox in The Green Fairy Book. If it's from Hermann Kletke the author has to be changed. If Grimm is correct then the variant has to be removed.
As for The Biter Bit: if we don't find information about the original title of a translation, and the translation was only published under a pseudonym ("Kletke" in this case), we still have to create a variant. However, we then use the same data (language, title, date) except for the author, which has to be the canonical author name ("Hermann Kletke" in this case). The reason is that without such a variant, The Bitter Bit will not show up on Hermann Kletke's page. This has been done already for The Biter Bit. the result is here.
As for pseudonyms (e.g. "Kletke" being pseudonym of the canonical author name "Hermann Kletke"): if a submission uses a new pseudonym which is not in the database yet, a second submission is necessary after the variant has been approved, because the record of the pseudonym has to be made a pseudonym of the record of the canonical author. This is sometimes done by moderators, but you should keep an eye on that. Please read Help:How_to_record_a_variant_title for the details about varianting.
Then there's the Ludwig Bechstein record, which seems to have several of these issues:
  • The Magic Swan by Kletke must not be a variant of Schwan, kleb' an by Ludwig Bechstein, because, coming from different authors, these are different works.
  • The same applies for the variants there which have "Grimm" as author.
  • Also, as far as I call tell from his Wikipedia page, Ludwig Bechstein must not be a pseudonym of Grimm because he's neither pseudonym nor is it just a different name for the Grimms.
Please take the time and check all the database records mentioned above, then either create submissions or post some answers (or subsequent questions) here. I know that all these rules are a lot to learn and the system of variants is complicated, but once you get used to it it'll be easier :)
Also, please use correct indentation in you answer using colons for better readability (check how I've done it here, and also see the "Wiki Conventions" link in your "Welcome!" message on top of this page for more information about that). Jens Hitspacebar 06:03, 10 February 2018 (EST)
The only title I varianted to Bechstein was The Magic Swan after consulting Kletke's book & checking his notes. I figured since a few others had been done this way I'd do that too-he was an important writer. The War of the Wolf & the Fox I knew wasn't the Brothers Grimm when I started doing the variants after my corrected version of The Green Fairy Book was accepted. I have Jack Zipes' translation & consult it constantly. Someone else varianted it to The Wolf & the Fox (Grimm tale no. 73) & I have corrected that. I wish there was a English translation for Kletke's book-I think he greatly inspired Andrew Lang with his early collection of world folktales.Loviatar 07:18, 10 February 2018 (EST)

How to handle author credit of traditional stories (again)

Please see How to handle author credit of traditional stories (again) as this discussion is relevant to the traditional fairy tales you have been working on. You are welcome to participate in the discussion. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 09:10, 10 February 2018 (EST)

Thanks for letting me know about the discussion. I think something has to be done with the stories Andrew Lang mitakenly attributed to Grimm.Loviatar 07:37, 11 February 2018 (EST)

Dr Steere

Hello, I've rejected your submission for the second time. As "Edward Steere" does not seem to have been used (for now), it's useless to create a new canonical. We do not credited Hal Clement's works to "Harry Stubb". I've salvaged your submission and credit the original title to Dr Steere. Hauck 06:39, 24 February 2018 (EST)

Dr Steere

Hello, I've rejected your submission for the second time. As your submissions lack sources, it's unclear if "Edward Steere" have been used (for now), it's useless to create a new canonical. We do not credited Hal Clement's works to "Harry Stubb". I've salvaged your submission and credit the original title to Dr Steere. Hauck 06:41, 24 February 2018 (EST)

I don't know what you mean by "lacking sources" as all three stories are from Steere's book Swahili Tales which I had to read online to verify. As for the name, I'll make Dr. Steere a variant for Edward Steere. I've been told before to credit "as per pub" and Lang lists him as Dr. Steere in his preface. I hope when I correct that the submissions will be okay.Loviatar 07:43, 24 February 2018 (EST)
What I need is in fact the URL of this book to confirm that there are indeed texts signed "Edward Steere". Hauck 08:46, 24 February 2018 (EST)
Thanks for the link (you could have responded here, that would have been easier to find), I've done the necessary changes (or so I hope). I've decided to skip the "L.L.D." part. Hauck 05:43, 25 February 2018 (EST)

Thanks. I thought it be easier if I just did it while I was varianting stories for The Violet Fairy Book(my research puts Wikipedia to shame LOL). Loviatar 08:16, 25 February 2018 (EST)

Conall Cearnach vs Conell Cearnach

Hi, your verified copy of Classic Tales of the Supernatural contains a story The Homing Bone by Conell Cearnach. Can that be a typo -either by you or by the publisher- for Conall Cearnach? He wrote the same story.--Dirk P Broer 07:00, 26 February 2018 (EST)

It's a publisher's typo, one of a few. I noticed a few titles were written out different as well(like Henry James' Romance of Certain Old Clothes as Some Old Cloths!). It is the same author, didn't I variant it to his name? When I did the contents I found the collection that story was originally printed in, but little else.Loviatar 08:38, 26 February 2018 (EST)
I've corrected it.--Dirk P Broer 09:45, 26 February 2018 (EST)
Thanks.Loviatar 10:14, 26 February 2018 (EST)

French Capitalization Redux

Hello, when you create a new title record in french, please respect the standard french capitaliztion: only the first word of the title is capitalized except for the "proper" nouns (places, names, personnified concepts). Do not copy what's in the source(s), regularize the capitalization as above. I've had to correct (invisibly to you) quite a lot of your submissions. Thanks. Hauck 04:23, 13 March 2018 (EDT)

I'm sorry M. Hauck. I still get confused sometimes translating(at least I can clearly read the French books,, most of the German books I check are in Gothic & a pain in the derriere), but being French yourself I'm glad someone knows. I would have thought books put out by folklore societies and other authorities would be correct, but I guess things have changed since the 1880's. I had noticed changes sometimes, wish there was an option that let's a person correct mistakes that pop up when you submit, sort of a last chance before the moderators see. Anyways, thanks for everything.Loviatar 02:11, 15 March 2018 (EDT)
No problem, IIRC the "standard" (sic) rules of capitalization for french are quite stable. The problem is the infinite typological creativity of the french publishers (compare this with two capitals with that without any or a slightly later printing from the same publisher) compounded by the fact that we decided to regularize capitalization. You may find the same problem for english titles, especially for "little" words (to, for, an, etc.) that we (normally) regularize even if the title itself is capitalized differently. Hauck 04:22, 15 March 2018 (EDT)

I know exactly what you mean when it comes to some English titles-I've come across a few eye-rollers while working on Andrew Lang's Fairy Books. I use to mark spelling & other English tests for teachers, so it irks me a little. The current book I'm working on even had a word I didn't think could be used in Scrabble-foollishest! Loviatar 04:37, 15 March 2018 (EDT)

Apart from this (I've still had to correct your last two additions in French), please also remember that, for countries of birth, we use only "USA" and "UK" (authors born in "U.K." or "U.S.A." show up on our of our cleanup reports and have to be corrected by a moderator, usually me). Thanks. Hauck 04:34, 20 March 2018 (EDT)
Thanks for the info for UK & USA, wasn't sure about that. The one d'Aulnoy story I added I would have had as 'biche' & only capitalized that world as that's how it was on Wikipedia.Loviatar 04:53, 20 March 2018 (EDT)
Well, as I said before, we regularize capitalization so please follow our set of rules regardless of what wikipedia, The Pope, the publisher or even God himself said. So it's "biche". Hauck 06:22, 20 March 2018 (EDT)

The Complete Fairy Tales & Stories of Hans Christian Andersen

I saw your note on your changes to Erik Christian Haugaard, but I couldn't find the The Complete Fairy Tales & Stories of Hans Christian Andersen to which you referred, so I can't comment on what you did with regard to recording a translation. Each story's title record should have Haugaard designated as translator. If the entire book exists in Danish and was translated by him in it's entirety, you should record it in the collection's title record (which would then be a variant of the original Danish collection's title record). Does that help? --MartyD 09:09, 25 March 2018 (EDT)

I just (partially) added the book. Apparently it's based on a 1874 edition Andersen edited himself, so I guess have to add that info. I haven't finished adding all 156 stories, will do more tomorrow. When I'm done, I'll see what I can do. I tried to put Haugaard as the collection's translator like in the template notes but guess I didn't do it right. Thanks for the info.Loviatar 09:21, 25 March 2018 (EDT)

You set it correctly on the collection level. But it needs to be added in each of the English stories one by one as well. I added it to a few today, will probably give you a hand with the rest over the weekend if you do not get around to it. This way these won't get merged with other translations. Annie 03:53, 30 March 2018 (EDT)
Okay, thanks a lot. I think at least half the stories don't have English translations in the database outside this publication, so probably won't have to do too many. Some also have different titles compared to other English translations(like The Bog King's Daughter instead of the more common Marsh King's Daughter), so that shpuld help a bit too. Loviatar 04:18, 30 March 2018 (EDT)
There are none now... but there may be one later. So all stories with known translators should have the translator in the notes so we do not need to dig later :) Annie 04:46, 30 March 2018 (EDT)
Okay, will do. Loviatar 05:10, 30 March 2018 (EDT)
When I am working on something like this, I usually do double edits at the same time - make the variant and immediately, edit title on the translation to add the translator. Both are independent so you can submit them at the same time and this way you do not need to spend an hour (or 3) mindlessly adding translators at the end :) Annie 13:11, 30 March 2018 (EDT)

The Ruby and the Cauldron


Wikipedia, while very useful, is not always reliable and using it as an only source can lead to moving typos between DBs and sites. We have 2 PVs, both active, that have books containing the story. Can you please discuss with them how the story appears in their books before changing the title? If they agree that the name is wrong in our DB, I will approve the change. Meanwhile I will keep the submission on hold until this is resolved. Thanks! Annie 07:26, 11 April 2018 (EDT)

I own the one book listed for that title-Classic Mystery Stories-& it is listed as The Ruby and the Caldron. I never saw it spelled that way before so I always remembered it. Also when I googled the title, that's what showed up except for one entry. Loviatar 07:40, 11 April 2018 (EDT)
Your note mentioned only Wiki :) We still have two Primary Verifiers that need to be consulted though per our etiquette - in case there is a different spelling in their books for example and to ensure that the data they had verified does not get changed with no warning. Thanks! Annie 07:49, 11 April 2018 (EDT)
I've pinged the PV that is around. Hopefully he will respond shortly and we will resolve this one. Thanks for your patience. Annie 12:44, 11 April 2018 (EDT)
Answer received and submission approved. Thanks! Annie 16:39, 11 April 2018 (EDT)


Hello, I've put your submission on hold. Can you confirm that this book meets our ROA? In a nutshell, is it a book "about" spec-fic? Thanks. Hauck 03:57, 12 April 2018 (EDT)

Now I'm not sure! It's a non-fiction book about Voodoo, which I know has been featured in a lot of horror. I saw the author's name & just checked his page as I remembered I had this book & thought I should add it. Also to add a missing title to the Library of Occult series(I found 6 others in my collection not listed). I know some non-fiction is listed in the isfdb, but I'll leave it up to your judgment. Thanks.Loviatar 04:06, 12 April 2018 (EDT)
Let's not encumber ourselves with such titles, I've rejected your submission. Thanks.Hauck 04:07, 12 April 2018 (EDT)
Okay. Maybe should delete his entry altogether. The only title listed is another non-fiction book, this one about Easter Island.Loviatar 04:10, 12 April 2018 (EDT)
I confess that this was my initial thought, I'm going to try it. Hauck 04:35, 12 April 2018 (EDT)
Done. Hauck 04:39, 12 April 2018 (EDT)
Okay, thanks.Loviatar 04:53, 12 April 2018 (EDT)

The Bones of Djulung

I have put your submission for creating a new parent on hold. Could you explain how A. F. Mackenzie and new author Dr. B. F. Matthes (Dutch?) are connected? Stonecreek 12:51, 25 April 2018 (EDT)

It's actually A.F. Chamberlain as I wrote in the note for The Lilac Fairy Book. It's a little complicated. The story was collected & published in Dutch by Dr. B.F. Matthes. That story was translated into German & published by T.J. Bézemer in his collection Volksdichtung aus Indonesien. This in turn was translated by Chamberlain for Folk-Lore. I hope that clears things up a bit! Loviatar 16:10, 26 April 2018 (EDT)
What does 'collected & published in Dutch by' mean? Is it in any incarnation credited to Matthes (or to Mackenzie / Chamberlain)? And who did write it really? Stonecreek 16:42, 26 April 2018 (EDT)
Dr. Matthes collected the story from the Macassar natives of Sulawesi, Indonesia & published as part of an article in the Dutch journal Bijdragen tot de Taal- Land- en Volkenkunde van Nederlandsche-Indie(no.34, 1885), AKA the Journal of the Humanities & Social Sciences of the Dutch Indies. It is credited to him in that article & also in Chamberlain's article in Folk-Lore. I hope that helps. It's interesting that the story is considered a variant of Cinderella.Loviatar 00:39, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
I have approved the submission but changed the original author to 'unknown', since Matthes obviously drew from another source and he & Mackenzie are different authors, so they can't have a pseudonymous relationship. I hope that's okay (see also the note for the new title). Stonecreek 04:29, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
If we're going to list it that way we might as well credit all tales from the Brothers Grimm & all other folktale collectors to others or unknown as they collected them from others(which is where at least half of the stories in the Fairy Books are from). Also why would there be a pseudonymous relationship between Chamberlain(Lang erroneously listed him as Mackenzie) & Matthes? The story was first published in Dutch by Matthes, translated into German, than from the German version to English by Chamberlain. BTW, I had hoped when I added Chamberlain's info, the canonical name would be changed & Mackenzie varianted to Chamberlain. Lang's proofreader messed up there.Loviatar 05:16, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
I reverted the varianting and deleted the Matthes title. As for what you wrote, the Dr. wrote that he ain't the author of the tale but only collected it, so he discredits himself. The varianting is for titles effectively by the same author(s), which is not the case. Stonecreek 06:01, 27 April 2018 (EDT)

The White Blackbird

I am clicking too fast - was planning on approving and fixing the short story variant and managed to send the same rejections to both - sorry about that... We define novels based on the number of words - what the author or a publisher calls it does not matter much. So based on your note that it is short, I made the variant as a novella. For the chapbook - we make a variant only if there is a publication like that - we always variant the text elements but the containers (anthology, collection, omnibus, chapbook) don't always have editions in the original languages - so we do not create empty variants. When a publication is added that is essentially the same chapbook, it will get varianted but until then, the English one stands alone. Annie 02:43, 2 May 2018 (EDT)

Okay. Thanks.Loviatar 05:24, 2 May 2018 (EDT)

The Mike Stocks titles


I approved most of the variants but kept thinking about them. The way the DB works is that variants won't show on their author pages on their own - so in this case Stocks page will be very empty. And "retelling" is not exactly what the variants are for - abridgements - yes (and then we add the original author as an author as well), but not retellings. The only way to connect the dots with the retellings is to use the notes field.

So are those retellings or just abridgements? Thanks! Annie 05:00, 26 May 2018 (EDT)

They are retold by Mike Stocks. When I originally added the 2 books I put the authors down, but the moderator JLaTondre redid them to Stocks with the authors in notes. It just kept bugging it was too bad these versions aren't mention under the original authors summaries, just the notes. Especially the Barry Pain story. Though the one story was a mix of 2, so I wouldn't know what to do! Btw-was there a problem with the website last nite? Every time I tried to get on ISFDb I kept getting an SQL error note.Loviatar 05:36, 26 May 2018 (EDT)
Software Issues - a DB report that was doing something it was not supposed to - so we were down for most of the US nights in the last 3 days. It was identified today and disabled so we are back to normal. Happens now and then :)
For the stories - let me sleep on this whole thing? Annie 06:28, 26 May 2018 (EDT)
No problem. As for the software, I'm in Canada so it was more widespread. Glad everything's okay now.Loviatar
It was a DB problem - the whole site was down. I was using the "US night" to indicate time :) Annie 08:21, 26 May 2018 (EDT)

Jim Henson's The Storyteller

Thanks for adding contents to Jim Henson's The Storyteller! A quick FYI: LCCN numbers go into the External IDs field, where they automatically become links to the online catalog of the Library of Congress. Isn't 21st century technology amazing? :-) Ahasuerus 17:37, 17 July 2018 (EDT)

It sure is sometimes, thanks. I have to fix the title of one story, just realized that while watching the original shows. Loviatar 04:21, 18 July 2018 (EDT)

Augusto Uribe


You mentioned that you were unable to add the Amazon ES page to this one and could not. I added it successfully. Do you remember what errors it was giving you? Thanks! Annie 15:44, 18 July 2018 (EDT)

It might have just been my tablet, I need to get a new one. I was pressing the add new webpage feature but it wouldn't do anything. Not the first time I'vve had a problem like that. Seems my tablet can only handle so much before it freezes. I'm sure it's just that. Thanks for adding the info.Loviatar 01:32, 21 July 2018 (EDT)

Man’s Inhumanity to Man

I have had to reject your variant of this title. While that line does come from "Man Was Made To Mourn: A Dirge", it has also been used as the title of extracts from that poem (example). We do not variant extracts to the original work. I have added a note to both the publication and the title record describing both possibilities. It will have to wait on a verifier to resolve. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 10:26, 21 July 2018 (EDT)

No problem. If it had said extract I would have left it, I know books don't always state that. Loviatar 02:32, 24 July 2018 (EDT)

Death and Dr. Hornbook: A True Story

I have placed this edit on hold. When making such changes to a primary verified pub, you need to check with the verifiers first. It is quite common for publications to adapt works into modern English. If that's the case here, we would variant the title, not change it. I have notified a verifier and will process it based on his response. -- JLaTondre (talk) 10:35, 21 July 2018 (EDT)

Rtrace confirmed it was not changed to modern English. I have accepted the edit, but changed the date to 1787[1]. We use the date of first publication, not the date it was written. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 13:58, 21 July 2018 (EDT)
The webpage just gave a date, thought it was date of publication. Sorry.Loviatar 02:33, 24 July 2018 (EDT)

Tales of Ancient Persia

Regarding your addition of Tales of Ancient Persia: Your moderator note states "Info from my book & illustrator's Wikipedia page." What data comes from Wikipedia that is not in the book? Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 10:37, 21 July 2018 (EDT)

There was no copyright for the illustrations so I checked Victor Ambrus' page to make sure they were from the original edition.Loviatar 02:59, 22 July 2018 (EDT)
In case, it should be entered as "uncredited" and then varianted to Ambrus. The only case we directly use a credit that is not from the pub is for cover art. And in that case, we would use the canonical name of the artist, not a pseudonym. I will approve and make the necessary changes. -- JLaTondre (talk) 10:58, 22 July 2018 (EDT)

Ambrus was credited in my edition, on the cover & for interior. I just wanted to make sure the illustrations were from 1972 or were done for this paperback edition. Many of the Oxford Myths & Legends series was illustrated by Joan Kiddell-Monroe, so I just wanted to check.Loviatar 02:38, 23 July 2018 (EDT)

Ah, that was not clear. I have re-added the credits. -- JLaTondre (talk) 14:38, 23 July 2018 (EDT)

Thanks, sorry for any confusion.Loviatar 02:34, 24 July 2018 (EDT)

Hungarian Folk-Tales


The reason we have the titles normalization is to ensure that we do not end up with a myriad of variants based on what an editor/publisher preferred to use. The capitalization after "-" is one of those. If you want to note that "A Dragon-Tale" and "Hungarian Folk-Tales" have tale/tales in small letters, you should add a note to the publication but the titles need to be normalized. The changed publication is here. Thanks for the understanding! Annie 15:22, 24 July 2018 (EDT)

Barbara Leonie Picard's "The Three Wishes"

A quick question about this story: does the information about the publication date come from the Internet Archive copy of "The Mermaid and the Simpleton"? Or from their copy of "Castles and Dragons: Read-to-Yourself Fairy Tales for Boys and Girls" (which I have been unable to find at Ahasuerus 18:41, 31 July 2018 (EDT)

From The Mermaid & the Simpleton. It was republished in Castles & Dragons. Sorry about any confusion.Loviatar 03:58, 2 August 2018 (EDT)

Best-Loved Folktales of the World

I approved your addition but can you do me a favor and look at this one - it shares the ISBN. Is it an earlier/first edition of your book? Or is the year actually wrong and we can just delete this one and leave yours as the first edition? Thanks! Annie 16:47, 1 August 2018 (EDT)

I noticed that too & I think whoever put in the original mistakenly listed the book as hardcover instead of paperback. The copyright info in my book states it was first published in hardcover in 1982 by Doubleday & then in paperback in 1983 by Anchor Books(a division of Random House). So the other entry should probably be deleted. Thank you.Loviatar 04:05, 2 August 2018 (EDT)

Best-Loved Folktales of the World

I'm holding your three edits that would change the authors in Best-Loved Folktales of the World. Based on your pub notes, it sounds like these stories are not credited in the publication. If so, they should be varianted to the original works. Your current edits would change the authors in your pub (to say they are credited that way in the pub). Would you please confirm? -- JLaTondre (talk) 12:06, 11 August 2018 (EDT)

The only authors credited were in the copyright section, except for a few stories mentioned as the Brothers Grimm in the Introduction. I've been going thru my books & others online to find the other stories(I'm still not sure what edition of Grimm was used, though some stories match a 1922 edition). I know we're suppose to credit per pub, but what if only some are? When I submitted the first part(West Europe) originally, over half the stories weren't mentioned in the copyright pages. I wish people would list story sources even if they're in the public domain. I've only added non-credited sources if they match. That's what I was doing with the Lang Fairy Books(I still haven't traced The Half-Chick which Cole reprinted). At least this book is better than 1one I have at home which was a partial reprint of a 1931 book, but without listing anybody. The publisher even had the nerve to reprint the original editor's notes except for the lines listing the source books. Anyways, I hope I can continue. Loviatar 03:11, 12 August 2018 (EDT)
The credits should be per the pub. If the pub doesn't provide an author credit, it should be entered as uncredited. If you trace down the original source, the title record in the pub should be varianted to a credited title; not change the uncredited title record. Take a look at how Best-Loved Folktales of the World is currently entered: On page 50, it is saying that story is credited to Paul DeLarue within the pub. On page 53, it is saying the story is not credited in the pub, but it is known to be a Grimm brothers translation. See the difference? You didn't explicitly answer my original question. I'm guessing these are credits you tracked down and are not in the pub? -- JLaTondre (talk) 08:51, 12 August 2018 (EDT)

I did track down titles. I'll go back & delete all the info I added that wasn't listed(a lot of the European stories weren't credited). Some titles I don't think I can variant as they already are-I can't variant Drakestail to the Andrew Lang book as that's already a variant of a French story. As for the Grimm stories, only a few were mentioned in the Introduction. Sorry for being so nerdy, I like looking up stuff.Loviatar 06:21, 13 August 2018 (EDT)

If Drakestail is the same as the version in Lang's book and they are both translation of the original French story, than it should also be varianted to the original French story. It's great that you are tracking these down, they just need to be recorded in the database the correct way. There can also sometimes be issues over translations vs. adaptations (especially in the older fairy tales), but we can only do the best we can with the info we have. I have put the additional edits on hold as we shouldn't loose that info. Tomorrow, I will make the variants and then accept the change to make it uncredited. After that, you can double check the record. -- JLaTondre (talk) 23:20, 13 August 2018 (EDT)

Okay, thanks. Some of the stories I have in other books, so they would probably be added anyways. I just wish the editors would credit the source books. I think it would help if a person wanted to learn the folktales of other cultures. At least Andrew Lang did for the most part, though he should have been more careful as editor(I finally tracked down a story Lang attributed to Paul Sebillot, & it's actually a nearly word-for-word reprint of a Basque story!)Loviatar 03:51, 14 August 2018 (EDT)

I made the variants & accepted the publication edit. You did not need to clear the publication notes. You can add whatever explanations you wish to the pub notes and title notes. That is always good to have. It is the titles and author credits that should match the book. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:19, 14 August 2018 (EDT)

Oxford Myths and Legends

Hi. You verified and presumably entered 1990s editions/printings of at least two Oxford Myths and Legends (see), Hungarian Folk-Tales and Tales of Ancient Persia. The latter needs a change of publisher from "Oxford" to "Oxford University Press".

ISFDB publisher Oxford is in Canada, evidently. If/when I find more information I will recommend that we disambiguate it with something in parentheses. Then "Oxford" will generate a yellow-background "Unknown Publisher" warning for the benefit of contributors including moderators.

By the way, here is the pound sterling symbol £ that you may wish to use by copy/paste.

Welcome to ISFDB. --Pwendt|talk 14:56, 19 September 2018 (EDT)

Thanks, I've been meaning to go back and change the publisher.Loviatar 02:01, 20 September 2018 (EDT)

Oh I see one more thing for this publication series. The 1954 price "18s, 6d" should be "18/6". --Pwendt|talk 11:36, 20 September 2018 (EDT)

Elizabeth Willis DeHuff

Hi, sorry for the reject, but as the author's name was changed in a publication, the update was no longer valid (it had to be hard rejected, since the initial name no longer existed). Please supply the information anew. Thanks, Stonecreek 04:30, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

Will do.Loviatar 04:36, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

Varianting P'u Sung-Ling

Hi, I had to reject your proposal for varianting a piece by P'u Sung-Ling to another, earlier English title. The author has Chinese as his working language (as he is Chinese), so the varianting should be done to a Chinese original title. Thanks, Stonecreek 05:03, 3 October 2018 (EDT)

No problem. I don't know Chinese(& I'm not going to even try to translate!) so hopefully someone someday can do the book. I would like to variant to the original Chinese, but only a few stories have been done.Loviatar 02:43, 4 October 2018 (EDT)

C. W. Tawney

Hi, I just approved a submission of yours where a certain C. W. Tawney was co-author. As this is not a common surname I double-checked. Isn't this the same author as C. H. Tawney?--Dirk P Broer 04:44, 8 October 2018 (EDT)

Yes it is. After I pressed submit I looked and saw I made a mistake. I used to be able to back up and fix it on my old tablet, can't with this new one. Thanks for pointing it out.Loviatar 04:49, 8 October 2018 (EDT)

The Tale of Tuppenny

Question about your verified publication The Tale of Tuppenny (possible typos in the record) : Is the foreword really titled "Foreward" and the title at the head of the short story really printed "Tuppeny"? --Vasha (cazadora de tildes) 14:54, 26 October 2018 (EDT) Sorry to be so late getting back to you Vasha, been offline the last while. Thanks for pointing out my spelling mistake-it is Tuppenny. Also I doublechecked and it does say Foreward. Thanks for the help!Loviatar 01:56, 3 November 2018 (EDT)

"Freely translated by Wanda Gag"

Hi, I was always under the impression that "Freely translated" meant 'translated beyond recognition' or so heavily modified that the 'translator' becomes the new author (e.g. Philip José Farmer, Brian Stableford, etc.).--Dirk P Broer 06:54, 10 November 2018 (EST)

Whatever the standard used on IFSDB for translations is fine by me. I don't know how accurate a translation Gag did, but they're still from the Grimms. Loviatar 07:02, 10 November 2018 (EST)
Ironcastle by J. H. Rosny aîné and Philip José Farmer. Stableford appears to stick much closer to the original text in his translations.--Dirk P Broer 07:42, 10 November 2018 (EST)
Or take Walt Disney's version of 'Junglebook', another "Freely adaption" -would you enter that under Rudyard Kipling only? I'd say enter both Wanda Gag and the Grimm brothers, and variant it to the original.--Dirk P Broer 09:21, 10 November 2018 (EST)

Okay, will do. Thanks.Loviatar 01:49, 11 November 2018 (EST)

"Haddam Witches" variant

Hi. Your proposed "Haddam Witches" variant would make a title by the canonical author a variant/child of a new title by the alternate name. That is backwards. Did you perhaps mean to do something different? --MartyD 10:22, 25 November 2018 (EST)

I thought I was varianting to the original title. Original-Haddam Witches by M. Jagendorf-1948. In the system-The Haddam Witches-Moritz Jagendorf-1958(from Witches!Witches!Witches!). I don't know why the latter is listed as a variant.Loviatar 23:37, 25 November 2018 (EST)

Alternate names (nee pseudonyms) and titles

Hi. If you make a new alternate name relationship (e.g., as you did for Nancy Swoboda to Nancy C. Swoboda), the software does not automatically make the alternate name's titles into variants of the canonical name's titles. That has to be done by hand. So when establishing the alternate name relationship, you should also go through that author's titles and make variants credited to the canonical name. I did that for Nancy, just something to keep in mind for the future. Thanks. --MartyD 09:02, 1 December 2018 (EST)

I wasn't sure about that, thank you for letting me know.Loviatar 04:18, 2 December 2018 (EST)

The Fabulous Beasts

I'm holding your edit to The Fabulous Beasts. Does the book actually use "The Fabulous Beasts (excerpt from Grimbold's Other World)" as the title? We only add "(excerpt)" to differentiate excerpts that are identically titled to the original work. Since that is not the case here, we would leave it as titled in the pub. -- JLaTondre (talk) 09:16, 8 December 2018 (EST)

Oh, okay. The anthology just says The Fabulous Beasts then has a note that it's from Grimbold's Other World. I checked & added the info on what part of the book it's from. I didn't know the rule for adding excerpt. It is nice to know it's from a novel, but I won't add it if I'm not suppose to. Thanks for letting me know.Loviatar 23:10, 9 December 2018 (EST)

Approved it, but removed the addition to the title. It's still good to list it in the notes. -- JLaTondre (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2018 (EST)

Okay, thank you.Loviatar 11:11, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Un frammento di Vita


Regarding this change. The source is Fantascienza. While it is possible that it is part of the much longer novella, this is a 1 page "something" and I suspect it may be in a poetic form. A one page excerpt should not be varianted under a novella anyway. So should we just leave it as it is, maybe adding a note that it is a 1 page work only? Annie 04:59, 15 December 2018 (EST)

I'd just leave it as it is until someone gets more information. I looked at the Fantascienza page & I wish I could see the book. It probably is a poem as stated, but maybe not originally titled A Fragment of Life. I checked his Collected Works & could find no poem under that title. Loviatar 05:34, 15 December 2018 (EST)

Brett Halliday / Davis Dresser

I'm going to reject your edit to make this title a variant of a new title under the author's legal name, Davis Dresser. The problem is that this would put the two names in an incorrect parent child relationship. We have nine publications where the author is published as "Brett Halliday" and none where he is published as Dresser, or one after we add the story in Argosy where the it is published as by Dresser. Consequently, the canonical name should remain Halliday and the alternate name should be Dresser. We already have the July 30, 1938 issue of Argosy listed. I would recommend editing that issue to add the story as by Dresser, then make the new story a variant of the existing one. We could then make the variant name relationship with Halliday as the canonical name. Thanks. --Ron ~ RtraceTalk 08:26, 23 December 2018 (EST)

I wasn't going to change the canonical name at all. Thanks for telling me about the Argosy issue. Hopefully this will get it all straightened out!Loviatar 08:31, 23 December 2018 (EST)

Argosy, July 30, 1938

Are all the titles you are adding to Argosy, July 30, 1938 genre? Simply because an author is in our database does not mean we add all their stories. For us to list non-genre stories, the author needs to be above the threshold. That does not seem the case here. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 09:14, 23 December 2018 (EST)

I was just going to add the one story(Brett Halliday writing under his real name of David Dresser) as per RTrace's suggestion to fix another entry. I'm not sure about the other titles. Maybe the Dale Clark/Ronal Kyser, he wrote quite a few. Anyways, I leave it to your judgment.Loviatar 09:22, 23 December 2018 (EST)
I re-did the edit with just the one story. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 10:02, 23 December 2018 (EST)

The Sutor of Selkirk

I've rejected your edit to The Sutor of Selkirk. Please remember that when you change an author's name for a story, you are changing it for every publication that story is listed in. As we credit per the publication, this should only be done if every publication uses that credit. In this case, while the original magazine had a credit, it seems subsequent publications (including a primary verified one) left it uncredited. As such, this record should remain as by uncredited and it should be varianted to a new one using magazine credit. In addition, as you put in the notes, the magazine did not use "Anonymous". It used 'One of the Authors of the "Odd Volume," "Tales and Legends," &c.' As such, that should be the credit. Anonymous should only be used when the publication uses Anonymous. I have varianted it to this record. -- JLaTondre (talk) 10:43, 1 January 2019 (EST)

Thank you. I get confused as to how to credit some things. I checked "The Odd Volume" and "Tales & Legends" & no one was credited to those books, though HathiTrust Digital Archive says they're from a M. Corbett. No idea where they got that name. Anyways, thank you.Loviatar 17:45, 1 January 2019 (EST)

Bluebeard's Daughter

I've been wondering for a while now what you're trying to do with this title. I have it twice now in my changed verifications list, both with the note 'This is a new transaltion by the editor Huijing'. I'm going to add the translator to the notes (again), but that will only result in the merging of the two versions, because the first variant has the same note. Did you mean that the first translation was not by Huijing? If so the translator note must be changed to uncredited. If both translations are by Huijing, but differ, this should also be wxplained in the notes (something like'do not merge this title with the other translation'). --Willem 17:01, 5 January 2019 (EST)

I'm sorry for any confusion. They are 2 different translations. I thought I already added the translator(I have to get the name from Google Books). I will add it.Loviatar 02:14, 6 January 2019 (EST)
Thanks for the explanation. I added Huijing as translator to the right title, and changed the other to 'unknown' to avoid merging by accident. --Willem 04:46, 6 January 2019 (EST)

I found the name of the translator for the 1946 version. It's an A. Kooistra. I have that change in my pending submissions. Thanks. Loviatar 04:49, 6 January 2019 (EST)



While I love that you are adding the translators to all those stories, I will love it even more if you start using the {{Tr|}} template so I do not need to edit every single title after approving your edits - or leave them to show up on the cleanup report and edit then :) You can look at one of your latest edits to see how you can use both A and Tr at the same time. Thanks in advance! :) Annie 22:44, 15 January 2019 (EST)

I didn't know I could do that, thanks for letting me know. Saves some typing for both of us!Loviatar 22:55, 15 January 2019 (EST)
Just keep in mind that you cannot have two separate A inside of one Tr - so for double translators, you cannot do links. :) It is a neat side effect - but it is a side effect - thus the weird limitation. If you need multiple links, the href format works. Or just leave them unlinked. :) Annie 23:05, 15 January 2019 (EST)


NONFICTION is used only as a container - when a book does not contain any fiction (or poems). I reverted this back to an essay which is the short form of NONFICTION - basically if it is inside of a book with at least one fiction item, it is an essay (except for reviews and interviews of course) :) Annie 00:03, 16 January 2019 (EST)

PS: Or did you try to indicate that this is non-genre (that's one of the checkboxes, not the type)? If so, it should just be deleted. Annie 00:04, 16 January 2019 (EST)
The Chilling and Killing called it non-fiction, though it's more like fiction. It's kind of a weird entry. The author wrote 'detective puzzle' books where the reader is given clues to solve it themselves, with answers at the back. I couldn't determine whether this formula was followed in Masterstrokes or not, Google Books' Snippet View kinda of sucks in that respect. Loviatar 00:27, 16 January 2019 (EST)
And anything inside of a book of fiction that someone calls non-fiction and which is not an interview or a review of a relevant title is called an essay in ISFDB :) That includes articles, essays, puzzles and anything else you can think of. You cannot have an entry of the type NONFICTION inside of another book - only standalone fully non-fiction books get that designation. Think of an essay as the content brother of NONFICTION - books are of types NONFICTION; non-fiction contents inside of books are of type ESSAY. In general, there are 4 types that cannot be inside of other containers: Omnibus, Editor, Non-fiction and Chapbook - you can have only one of those in an entry and it is always the main title. Hope that makes sense. Annie 01:07, 16 January 2019 (EST)
I don't know if it's here the case, but it is possible to have NONFICTION inside of an OMNIBUS, see this example, which omnibuses three previous books on Kafka. It is very seldom, though. Christian Stonecreek 03:00, 16 January 2019 (EST)
True. Omnibus Pubs can be a bit weird. And as we record box sets as omnibus editions as well, it can come from there as well I guess. But it still is a good rule to pay attention when having those as contents I think. :) Not the case here though. Annie 03:45, 16 January 2019 (EST)

The thing is I'm not 100% sure it's non-fiction at all. From what I read about the author (at it sounds like the stories were all fictional. I just can't say for sure with this story. Thanks anyways. Loviatar 03:18, 16 January 2019 (EST)

In which case it should have been changed from essay to short fiction. You were changing it from essay to non-fiction. Thus my explanations :) Annie 03:45, 16 January 2019 (EST)

Moonlight-Starlight vs Moonlight—Starlight

Hi, 'no longer a variant', but what now is the relation between Moonlight-Starlight and Moonlight—Starlight?--Dirk P Broer 08:06, 31 January 2019 (EST)

There shouldn't have been a variant in the first place. It had been listed incorrectly as Moonlight, Starlight for the one book. I fixed that (after checking the book Ladies of Horror?) and added the original publication date, so there should only be 1 entry. Loviatar 08:37, 31 January 2019 (EST)
When fixing, take care that hyphens (-) are not em-dashes (—, alt-0151).--Dirk P Broer 09:44, 31 January 2019 (EST)

Okay, thanks. I got tripped up on that a little while ago. Loviatar 05:51, 1 February 2019 (EST)

Satanism and Witchcraft

Hello, I have put your submission for this on hold: this seems to be more of a NONFICTION than an ANTHOLOGY, with only three - very short - pieces of fiction enclosed. Stonecreek 08:28, 27 February 2019 (EST)

If it can be put in as nonfiction with the 3 fictional pieces, that's fine. I didn't realize there was so little fiction until I started researching the pieces. Loviatar 19:54, 27 February 2019 (EST)

Well, things like that do happen: I'll approve of the submission and change to nonfiction.
The title does appear different on the cover ('Satanism and Witches') and the ISBN seems to be inavlid. Thanks, Stonecreek 02:18, 28 February 2019 (EST)

Oops, your're right. I'll adjust the title & put spaces in the ISBN. Thanks for pointing that out the title. I saw the ISBN pop up as bad so I'll put spaces in.Loviatar 04:50, 28 February 2019 (EST)

It seems that this has nothing to do with the spaces inserted since the system usually has no problems in sorting things out; instead, this really appears to be stated so in the book, which happens from time to time. Stonecreek 05:39, 28 February 2019 (EST)

J. L. Harbour

Oops, that misfired. By changing the title record for Jefferson Lee Harbour to J. L. Harbour, Jefferson Lee Harbour had no titles/publications anymore and was automatically removed from the database. Next time please enter the variant publication (or edit the publication, not the title) and variant the new (or changed) entry to the existing title.--Dirk P Broer 05:07, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Sorry about that. You're right, should have left the name alone.Loviatar 05:22, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Secondary sources

Hi. I accepted your changes to The Best Ghost Stories 1800-1849, but when we incorporate information from secondary sources into our records, we document those sources. So I added a general "and from Google Books" to the pub notes. Feel free to change, embellish, add a link, or whatever. Thanks. --MartyD 06:54, 21 March 2019 (EDT)

Oops. Meant to add the Google Books part. Thanks for the catch.Loviatar 06:58, 21 March 2019 (EDT)

James Isham, born Holborn 1716

Hi, You were right to have James Isham born in the Kingdom of Great Britain. You were wrong though in placing Holborn IN London in 1716. Up till the formation of the County of London in 1900 Holborn was in Middlesex. London used to be far smaller than it is today...--Dirk P Broer 08:44, 4 April 2019 (EDT)

Thanks! I just put down what Wikipedia said, which can be confusing. I check the year whether to put down UK or Kingdom of Great Britain, guess I have to see about London too! It's the same with some of the Scottish & Welsh counties when trying to figure out which names to use. At least it's a bit easier than figuring out some of the European duchies. Loviatar 23:43, 4 April 2019 (EDT)

Good Bowling and Card Playing

I'm holding your edit to unvariant Good Bowling and Card Playing. Your comment is "I thought I could make this a translation of a variant. Oops." You are correct that you cannot do that. But are you saying it is not a translation of "Von einem der auszog, das Fürchten zu lernen"? -- JLaTondre (talk) 09:09, 20 April 2019 (EDT)

It's a translation of the original version from the 1812 first edition. The German title is listed as a variant to "Von einem der auszog.das Furchten zu lernen". Loviatar 03:38, 21 April 2019 (EDT)
Then the translation variant is correct. -- JLaTondre (talk) 08:41, 21 April 2019 (EDT)

Okay. It gets confusing with the Grimms sometimes as most people don't realize most translations are from the final edition, not the first. The prince in the original Briar Rose wasn't so charming!Loviatar 06:16, 22 April 2019 (EDT)


"Big thanks to whoever varianted the Afanasyev (in Cyrillic) tales in Zipes' The Golden Age of Folk & Fairy and the Straparola tales in Zipes' The Great Fairy Tradition. Really appreciate it." You're welcome.--Dirk P Broer 10:03, 30 April 2019 (EDT)


I approved your edit to add further contents for Fearless Girls..., but maybe your fingers were moving too fast when you typed this... or is it genuinely titled that way? ;) PeteYoung 05:41, 23 May 2019 (EDT)

All the titles are are from the Internet Archive & Google Books' copies of the anthology. I double-checked some titles with the original books listed. Is there a certain title I might have goofed? I do tend to type fast & the spellcheck on my tablet only work when it wants to (& it's a newish tablet!).Loviatar 05:53, 23 May 2019 (EDT)
It's either "For Further Reading" or "For Furthing Reader". Your call. PeteYoung 06:29, 23 May 2019 (EDT)
Oops. It's 'For Further Reading". Thanks for letting me know.Loviatar 06:53, 23 May 2019 (EDT)
Thanks. Just a quick point of order: when replying to comments it's customary to add a colon at the start of the first comment, 2 colons at the start of the second, etc. It generally helps to 'stack' to comments. If you click edit for this talk you can see how it's done. Cheers. PeteYoung 21:06, 23 May 2019 (EDT)

Variant of Nothing

I rejected a submission of yours, not understanding what was going on. My mistake. Please resubmit. Bob 11:43, 31 May 2019 (EDT)

No problem, I should have been clearer. Thanks.Loviatar 03:36, 1 June 2019 (EDT)

A Night Adventure in the Alleghanies

I'm going to reject your edit to "A Night Adventure in the Alleghanies". The problem is that by changing the author credit on that title record, you'll be changing the title as it appears in the July 1835 issue of The American Monthly Magazine which should remain as uncredited. You can verify this through the Google books link which is in the magazine publication record. What you should instead do here, is make the existing title into a variant of a new title under Hoffman's name. I'll hold your edit for now so that you can copy your notes to the new variant record. Thanks. --Ron ~ RtraceTalk 06:33, 5 June 2019 (EDT)

Ok. Will do. Have to break the variant for A Terrible Night.Loviatar 06:45, 5 June 2019 (EDT)
Breaking the existing variant is not needed. The software will take care of that for you when you make a variant of the exiting parent title. --Ron ~ RtraceTalk 07:17, 5 June 2019 (EDT)

Ghosts and Spirits of Many Lands

You primary-verified this title: I have submitted a cover and info on illustrator. Hifrommike65 23:36, 1 July 2019 (CDT)

Thank you very much. I haven't been able to figure out how to add cover pics yet.Loviatar 03:20, 20 July 2019 (EDT)
Which part do you need help with - how to upload a picture or how to add a coverart title? Annie 03:57, 20 July 2019 (EDT)

Foreward (The Complete Fairy Tales and Stories)

Does The Complete Fairy Tales and Stories actually use "Foreward" (vs "Foreword") or is that a database typo? Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 11:15, 11 August 2019 (EDT)

Oops, my mistake. I have no idea why I put a instead of o. I checked my copy of the book in question & it's definitely foreword. I'll correct that. Thanks for pointing that out!Loviatar 02:11, 14 August 2019 (EDT)

Anancy an Common-Sense

Are you sure about this title (in this update? Either I am half asleep, or the English just does not make sense (or both...) Annie 03:19, 5 September 2019 (EDT)

It is. It was written in Jamaican patois originally. I prefer the version in regular English. It's like the original Uncle Remus stories, hard to make out the dialect sometimes.Loviatar 03:25, 5 September 2019 (EDT)
Jamaican patois - that makes sense. Now knowing what I am looking at, I can see it. Kinda. :) May want to add a note after I approve it.
On a separate note, when you have a chance, can you look at these duplicates and see if anything can be merged? As you seem to know more about Fairy Tales than most editors, you may have a chance in seeing something valid. :) Annie 03:31, 5 September 2019 (EDT)
Sure. Fairy and Folktales is one on of my obsessions, and if I ever move out of my Mom's house I'll need a wall just for the books I've collected the last 20 years (besides the 1000 other books I have!). Anyways be glad to see what I can do.Loviatar 03:39, 5 September 2019 (EDT)
I grew up with the Russian and Bulgarian Fairy Tales (with a heavy sprinkling of other Eastern and Central European ones) plus the more popular ones from the Western (and Eastern) cannons. Had been catching up on some less popular in the years since. I wish someone was translating more into English (Alexander Afanasyev's complete set from Russian, Raynov's Bulgarian ones and so on)... oh well. Annie 03:53, 5 September 2019 (EDT)
I haven't heard of Raynov, but I know there aren't a lot of translations of Bulgarian folk tales. I know Karel Erben had a few in his 19th century anthology (some translated into English by A.H. Wratislaw & all by W.W. Strickland). Another is A Gift from the Heart by Radost Pridham. Apparently there's a translation of Raynov (as Rainov) on Amazon, but the cover is in Cyrillic so I'm not sure.
Rainov is how the name used to be spelled when we followed the French rules for transliteration (my name has the same letter so my first passport had a different name than any subsequent one)... :) Cyrillic transliterations can be a lot of fun that way - and don't get me started in the Germans and their ideas of how to spell these names. There is indeed a translation from 1916 of some of his fairy tales - nowhere near all of them. Maybe I should do some digging and find out what actually had been translated in the last few decades. Pridham's book has a handful of stories as well... Annie 04:23, 5 September 2019 (EDT)

(unindent) Talking about Russian Fairy Tales, apparently there is a translation of Afanasyev's complete set (volume I and volume II (University Press of Mississippi0). A surprising place to find them but now I want to find these to see the translations. Oh well - falling down rabbit holes again... Annie 11:13, 6 September 2019 (EDT)

Fairy and Wonder Tales

So... what is the chance that the story "La Tabatière" is in French in these three? I think that when you (or someone else - I suspect you being Fairy tales and all) figured out the original, the wrong title was edited by mistake and it was noticed. What do you think? Annie 20:23, 5 September 2019 (EDT)

I had corrected the title, how the Fairy and Wonder Tales Book ended up with the French title sustituted is anyones guess. I have submitted a correction & deletion for 1 copy, do the other 2 books need to be done the same or can they be cloned or something? I can do them no problem just wondering.Loviatar 05:03, 6 September 2019 (EDT)
Easiest way: Remove the French one from all 3, add an English one to one of the three, import the newly created into the other 2 and at some point variant. Or add to all 3 and then merge instead of add and import. Clone works only on new books. I can do it in the morning if you want me to? Annie 05:10, 6 September 2019 (EDT)
Okay great. Thank you.Loviatar 05:11, 6 September 2019 (EDT)
If you can give me the story name in English as used in that edition, it will save me some digging. Annie 05:14, 6 September 2019 (EDT)
It's 'The Snuff-box' or 'The Snuffbox' & I have it listed as by Sébillot (in error). This translation was first published in Andrew Lang's The Green Fairy Book but I think it was accidentally credited to Sebillot as he probably sent it to Lang. The French volume it came from was from a series Sebillot helped create. It was only by accident I found the original as it was re-translated by Frederick Martens in a 1923 book & he had wonderful notes. I wish Lang had been more careful. I'm still not sure where The Half-Chick came from. I found other mistakes when I went over his Fairy Books last year.Loviatar 05:43, 6 September 2019 (EDT)
I see that someone fixed all that while I was asleep so all looks good. Now if you can find me the translator for the new title, that would be even better :)
As for Lang - considering what he was dealing with, I usually surprised that he did not make even more mistakes. :)Annie 11:10, 6 September 2019 (EDT)
It's the version from The Green Fairy Book which just lists the women who did the translations & doesn't say who did what. By the way I noticed on Google Books a 2-volume collection of Afanasiev that's suppose to have all or most of his stories, translated by Jack Haney. I like the cover with a fox riding a disguised wolf.Loviatar 04:48, 7 September 2019 (EDT)

Translators reminder

When adding the translators, can you please use the Tr template - see what I did here?. You need to press edit to see the template - when you just look at the screen, it shows up as resolved :) I will fix the ones now in the queue but if you can use that going forward, it will be greatly appreciated. Annie 23:09, 11 September 2019 (EDT)

I ususally do, sorry if I goofed. As for the person who put in the Libravox edition, is that a book or a sound recording? I know that most editions of the book follow the original which has no authors listed on the contents page but after (most) of the stories & in the the preface. Just trying to remove some of the duplicates.Loviatar 01:29, 12 September 2019 (EDT)
Yeah, the next one actually had the template :) Sorry - should have looked - I tend to just correct when it happens once in a while.
The Librivox edition is an audio version of the story/book. These are eligible as long as they are a straight reading and not a dramatization - books on tape, audible, old vinyl, whatever - as long as someone is reading the words as written, it is in. They are public domain (both the stories and the recordings) - so you can listen to them or to parts of them if that will help you figure out which version it is. Annie 01:35, 12 September 2019 (EDT)
It's Andrew Lang's The Blue Fairy Book, so I'm sure it's the same version as the original book & the reprint I own.Loviatar 01:53, 12 September 2019 (EDT)

Why the Sea Is Salt

This will change the authors in a verified book - and the PV is active. Can you please clear it with him first? Thanks! Annie 23:13, 11 September 2019 (EDT)

Ended up pinging the PV for the 3 that he has verified - give us a day or 2 to clear it through the system and if he is ok with the change, I will approve. Annie 23:17, 11 September 2019 (EDT)

The Talking Tree: Fairy Tales from 15 Lands

Hi, none of the stories in 'The Talking Tree: Fairy Tales from 15 Lands' is credited in the book itself, you have to variant the titles to the original.--Dirk P Broer 05:49, 12 September 2019 (EDT)

Okay. I just thought as the copyright page listed the Martens' translations & Fairy Tales from India (which I can't get a copy of) I could at least do those. Can I at least add the translators?Loviatar 06:01, 12 September 2019 (EDT)
You can add translators as -hopefully- given in the sources: "The Talking Tree: Fairy Tales from 15 Lands: Anthology of fairy tales, most previously published in the 1920s by Lippincott's anthologists Herman C. Martens (The Swedish Fairy Book, The Norwegian Fairy Book, The Chinese Fairy Book and The Danish Fairy Book) and Walter Pyle (Fairy Tales from India)".--Dirk P Broer 20:22, 12 September 2019 (EDT)
I'll correct the editors lsited. Frederick H. Martens (not Herman C.) was the translator for the Scandinavian & Chinese Fairy Books from the German of Clara Stroebe (the 3 Scandinavian) & Richard Wilhelm (Chinese). Fairy Tales from India, from what I can find online, was edited & illustrated by Katharine Pyle (her son Walter holding the copyright in 1955). The stories might be from Mary Frere's Old Deccan Days, but may have been rewritten. Unfortuntely there isn't a copy available for me to check. All the other stories (though not listed on copyright page) I can verify came from the Fairy Books published by Frederick A. Stokes. I know some of these books have been reprinted or partially reprinted by Dover Books. I need to get some of them for my collection someday.Loviatar 04:59, 13 September 2019 (EDT)

Valery Carrick

Approved your update but massaged it a bit - added his actual legal name in Russia (in Cyrillic), replaced the Norwegian link with the native Russian one and fixed his birth place - Russia is one of the countries that changed names a few times in its history and we credit based on the birth date :) Thanks for adding the details! Annie 01:02, 27 September 2019 (EDT)

No, thank you. I didn't see a Russian link & his birthplace I didn't look too closely for once. I usually a lot of digging for correct (for the time) birthplace so I really appreciate the help.Loviatar 03:15, 27 September 2019 (EDT)
I know you do - so decided to let you know after changing the data. I just know the Russian country name changes (and I cheat a bit - I keep them on my profile page) and I know of Carrick (he has awesome illustrated fairy tales - I am contemplating adding them actually...). Feel free to reach out if you cannot find something about any Eastern European author - or if you cannot find the weird spelling of their names - I may not always be able to help but I can search in a few more languages. :) Annie 03:25, 27 September 2019 (EDT)
That's awesome, thanks. Carrick was a really great illustrator-I read a few of his tales as a kid in the revised Vol.1 of Junior Classics, I have to add that book somtime. Poor Mr. Bun.

Just One More

I'm holding your submission of Just One More. I believe it is this book? Since it is "checked out" I can only see parts of it. However, the title page says "Selected and retold by Jeanne B. Hardendorff". The ToC does not list an authors. So:

  1. Are these retellings or translations? IF retellings they should be credited to Hardendorff.
  2. If they are translations, are the original authors specified? If not, they should be entered as uncredited.

Also since you are basing you verification of the scanned copy, you should be stating that in the publication notes. Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 08:04, 3 October 2019 (EDT)

The sources are listed at the back & some are given at the front with the acknowledgements. I know it says 'retold' but except for the 'Thirty-two Teeth' in which the characters were changed to an Irishman & Welshman from a Syrian Philosopher & an Armenian, most of the stories so far are mainly slightly abridged or have the odd word changed. I guess I should have put most of them as 'uncredited' as the book credits mostly to K.D. Wiggin & N.A. Smith's 'Tales of Laughter' or 'An Argosy of Fables'. When I see 'retold' I always check against the original if possible to see to what extent. Usually it's just editing. Hardendorff actually notes if she did anything with the story in the back.Loviatar 03:37, 4 October 2019 (EDT)
I approved the edit, but please make the necessary changes to show the credits as per the publication. You should also add a note explaining that while the title page says "retold" these are closer to translations than retellings (for future reference). Thanks. -- JLaTondre (talk) 18:32, 4 October 2019 (EDT)
Okay. Thank you.Loviatar 05:37, 5 October 2019 (EDT)

The Fairy Ring

I approved your submission for The Fairy Ring. Note you misspelled Wiggins' name in the contents, and there are unrecognized HTML tag(s) in the notes section that you should address. Bob 12:41, 11 October 2019 (EDT)

1. Note there are 63 stories, only 34 with previous publisher or author acknowledged (see the anthology title Note).
2. Before you add many Contents by Nora Archibald Smith (and complete that work), I propose that we make that full name canonical instead of Nora A. Smith; that is, exchange the current canonical name and pseudonym.
3. Just now I submitted the second volume in KDW & NAS fairy tale anthology series, Magic Casements (1907), lacking the similar title Note, which must say this essentially:
  • Acknowledgments identify 18 stories as previously published. McClure acknowledges the named publishers of 18 listed stories.
  • Previously published versions of the other stories (25?) are not indicated, and the preface by Kate Douglas Wiggin does not describe the contribution of the editors.
That is a draft by routine modification of the Fairy Ring title Note (mine from a few days ago).
I expect to add the third and fourth anthologies, too; not necessarily add stories myself.
4. Later I will suggest moving detail notes on the stories from publication records to the anthology title record (below {BREAK}), or preferably to one Wiki page that will need to be linked manually from the publication Note. Well, there I have suggested it, but I will provide more explanation if necessary.
Now I must run. I noticed you have added the 1909 publication, only in writing to User talk:Dirk P Broer#Fairy tales anthologies/collections on my way out the door. --Pwendt|talk 20:20, 11 October 2019 (EDT)
I noticed the misspelled name & HTML errors when I submitted. Will correct. Making Nora Archibald Smith the canonical is a great idea, I can take care of that if you like. I know the acknowledgements only mentioned a few sources (& got 2 wrong), will mention add comment about uncredited sources. I spent last nite checking the stories against different publications to make sure I had the right translations/source materials before submission. I will move the detail notes to the anthology page after I'm finished adding the stories. I can add the stories of the other Wiggin/Smith fairy books (+ the Talking Beasts anthology) if you like. Thank you very much for your help & suggestions.Loviatar 06:36, 12 October 2019 (EDT)
I plan to add the five Library of Fairy Literature works (all anthologies probably, but I have not confirmed) and their first editions, with publication info that I find in library records and contemporary newspapers; no story Contents (only introduction, illustrations, etc). Given you are at hand to continue, I plan to submit all three today (or submit two and ask whether Talking Beasts qualifies).
My suggestion about where to locate detail information about the stories, such as your notes in the 1909 publication record, is based on plan that multiple publications will be in the database, and I believe ISFDB should avoid repetition of big blocks of Notes in multiple records. Of course, one publication record may link to another publication record that contains such a block of Notes, rather than copy-paste them.
Anyway, for this series I will add some later publications myself, including the available Project Gutenberg ebooks (all except #2 Magic Casements), and presumably the Gutenberg source editions where those are not the first editions. This week, not today. --Pwendt|talk 15:13, 12 October 2019 (EDT)
Personal tools