User talk:Norman


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::::: Approved. With nothing to fix. Now the post-approval steps :) You may want to go back to #1 though - [ this] needs disambiguation. [[User:Anniemod|Annie]] 16:56, 10 November 2019 (EST)
::::: Approved. With nothing to fix. Now the post-approval steps :) You may want to go back to #1 though - [ this] needs disambiguation. [[User:Anniemod|Annie]] 16:56, 10 November 2019 (EST)
:::::: By the way, if you want, you can add RD1DE03 and so on on the first submission. Either way works. You need to edit to add the cover anyway so it does not really matter but if you are not adding a cover for some reason, keep that in mind. [[User:Anniemod|Annie]] 16:58, 10 November 2019 (EST)
:::::: By the way, if you want, you can add RD1DE03 and so on on the first submission. Either way works. You need to edit to add the cover anyway so it does not really matter but if you are not adding a cover for some reason, keep that in mind. [[User:Anniemod|Annie]] 16:58, 10 November 2019 (EST)
::::::: Perfect. Best support! But now I've to finish for today. --[[User:Norman|Norman]] 17:08, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Revision as of 22:08, 10 November 2019



Hello, Norman, and welcome to the ISFDB Wiki! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

Note: Image uploading isn't entirely automated. You're uploading the files to the wiki which will then have to be linked to the database by editing the publication record.

Please be careful in editing publications that have been primary verified by other editors. See Help:How to verify data#Making changes to verified pubs. But if you have a copy of an unverified publication, verifying it can be quite helpful. See Help:How to verify data for detailed information.

I hope you enjoy editing here! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will insert your name and the date. If you need help, check out the community portal, or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! Annie 13:31, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Changing verified publication


I put 3 of your updates on hold - as these are primary verified (aka a person with a book actually looked at them), the practice is to clear this kind of changes with them before changing. I had pinged him (as he is in Europe, he may be gone for the day so it may take a bit) but as soon as he responds, they will be dealt with. Thanks for submitting them and welcome again! Annie 13:34, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Or it will take only a few minutes. The PV confirmed so I approved them. One thing: when changing the date of a publication, you also need to change the dates of all the contents inside. I did that for these 3 but for future reference, when you press Edit publication, if you are changing a date, look down the page and make sure you change all the places which show that date. If they are greyed out, then it may need to be done one by one (it means they are used elsewhere) unless the date makes sense in the other publications. Thanks for finding and fixing these! Annie 14:19, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
Thanks for your support. --Norman 12:17, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Ren Dhark

Hello, as you've already seen the one existing publication of the original series is entered as a CHAPBOOK, not a novel. This is because the fiction is only of novella length. However, it would seem that the types of publication would be magazines (analogous to 'Perry Rhodan' or 'Die Terranauten': as with those, there was at some time additional material introduced, I tend to think. Do you happen to know what types of additional material this was?). I have put your submission on hold while waiting for an answer. Thanks for becoming active. Stonecreek 12:30, 3 November 2019 (EST)

'Ren Dhark' is very simular to 'Perry Rhodan'. Same format (size & material); same length of novel; same weekly distribution; same population to reach; SF-genre. Page 1: image & titel (colored); page 2: editorial-staff is contacting the readers; greeting; news; etc.; page 3: black/white printing; start of the story; page 65: end of story & impressum; page 66: last page of black/white printing; preview to the following story next week; page 67: glossary with some explanations in the story context; last page: advertising. i hope this can help you to decide. --Norman 13:24, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Since #21 in the middle of the magazine there they integrated 4, or 8 pages called: 'World Science News' including articles with real and actual technical news from different authors. --Norman 13:34, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Since this is a magazine, I rejected your submission to add this as a novel. Else there'd be a lot of cleaning-up to do afterwards. If you want to continue, I strongly recommend to study the help section(s) on magazines first. You may also take orientation with other magazines of a similar type (for example Perry Rhodan).
In any case the following is essential:
  • For magazines, the rule is to use the actual page count - including the cover (and the back cover).
  • You will have to record who's actually credited as editor(s) in the respective issue. (For Perry Rhodan there was a long period of time when nobody was credited as editor, and we do record this as 'uncredited'.)
  • You will have to give sources or an explanation for the date of publication and for pieces of art (especially the cover artist). Stonecreek 03:46, 4 November 2019 (EST)
#1 and #3: I'm able to give these informations, because I'm happy to own all 98 booklets of this first edition. #2: I didn't understand what it means "credited as editor(s)". Do you want more information about the responsible persons who has issued these stories by "Kelter"? This can i deliver from the copyright-section. --Norman 10:54, 5 November 2019 (EST)
That's exactly what I meant: As with Perry Rhodan any credit for the editor(s) will likely appear in the copyright section. For the latter series from 1961 to 1995 there was no one credited there (but K. H. Scheer and William Voltz were for some time on the respective intoductory page for the novella). We do record what is stated in a given magazine issue and variant then to the actual editors (for example, with PR Kurt Bernhardt and Günter M. Schelwokat also had their say in the first 20 years or so). Stonecreek 12:18, 5 November 2019 (EST)
With your information I have transformed the existing Ren Dhark #38 into a magazine, since the verifier is no longer participating, and was himself not sure about the character of the publication. If you find the time, please have a look into it. Thanks, Stonecreek 12:26, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Changing existing records

Per our etiquette you will have to ask primary verifiers (at least the ones that are still active) if you want to change existing records, and else will have to add a note to the moderator for the reason of changing. Since this was not the case, I have rejected several of your submissions (the cases in question were also unfounded). Stonecreek 03:49, 4 November 2019 (EST)

Thanks for your advice. But this was one of my first edits here and your answer and your etiquette is a little bit frustrating me. Anyway, what does this mean ? Whom i have to ask for this subject? --Norman 10:40, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Well you will be able to primary verify a publication if you own it (or verify it transiently, if you have your hands on it only for a short time). This information does appear at the bottom of the publication entry, and any information connected with it has to be added (or at least should have been controlled) by one of the verifiers, so the persons are sort of responsible for the entry. Stonecreek 12:22, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Ren Dhark, #38: Geheimnisvolles Tofirit

Hi Norman,

Let's work on this submission together. I will keep it on hold until we resolve whatever needs clarifying, then I will approve and make the needed changes. Then you can try with the next issue. :)

  • Catalog IDs are a little unusual for magazines but it happens. Where is this one coming from?
  • The change of the editor of the series will require the change of the editor of the magazine as well. Are the two credited as editors inside of the issue or are they different type of editors?
  • NONFICTION is only for books which are non-fiction. Inside of any book, a non-fiction item is recorded as an essay.
  • Is the title on page 65 really in English? Is it supposed to be in English? And is it really a picture?
  • unknown is used for cases where we are taking data from external sources; if you have the magazine (you mentioned so?), and there is no credit, we use "uncredited" instead.
  • Are any of these essay in all the issues (with the same name)? If so, we will need to disambiguate.

Let me know if you have any questions or something is unclear and once we confirm these, we will move to the next step :) Annie 18:32, 5 November 2019 (EST)

It's very nice to get your support, Annie. Thanks. Here my answers:
  • Catalog ID: I thought it would be helpful to create a Catalog ID similar as for 'Perry Rhodan'. But actually it's not urgent. Later perhaps, because there exits a 2nd and 3rd-edition of the 98 magazine with different covers, articles and so on. And in the Ren-Dhark-univers there exist 6 paperbacks (from Kelter), and five different hardcover series (from another editor)
  • editor: perhaps i was wrong adding a second person. The editior of the Ren Dhark series is Kurt Brand (the one and only). But the resonsible manager of Kelter (for all publications) was in 1967 Gerhard Melchert.
  • Using Essay it's ok
  • Page 65: the title is not in english. This page has no title; it contains two columns; on the left an text from editoral-staff is describing the title and the story content which will be next week within the series. on the rigth side there is an graphical illustration (rocket starting into the space).
  • using 'uncredited' is ok
  • the essay "World Science News" has always the same name. It is similar to Perry Rhodan-Report.
--Norman 12:12, 6 November 2019 (EST)
OK then. Approved and did a few changes:
  • Moved the name of Gerhard Melchert here. Feel free to edit to change the description. And removed it from the magazine you tried to add it to.
  • The catalog ID can stay - I was more curious than anything. You may want to write an explanation about its formation up on the series level (where I moved the editor name).
  • Fixed the EDITORs link (as it is an yearly record, it does not get a month or a day
  • Fixed the uncredited and the essays.
  • See what I did for that "next week" piece. Does this make sense? We can change it any way you prefer but this seems to be closer to what it is?
  • What about the essay "Technikon"? Do we need to disambiguate or is it one off?
Let me know if I missed something. Once you like it, you should really verify it so people know who to ask questions about it (if any).  :) Annie 12:24, 6 November 2019 (EST)
Hi! If Melchert is credited in the copyright section he has to be stated as editor within the entry!
Re the 'Preview': We do record what is stated, and I can't imagine that there's an English title stated. Also, usually we don't index the previews.
For both points (editor & preview) please take a look at Die Terranauten. Schmitz is credited in the copyright section of each issue. And one more for the preview: Lührs seems to be the artist for Ren Dhark, is he really also credited for the preview?
I did some updating: putting the titles that are part of a series into the latter. Stonecreek 14:09, 6 November 2019 (EST)
I'm sorry to be so unprecise. But the rules and the data-structure of isfdb is complex for a beginner (in like me. Perhaps my approach of the subjet Ren Dhark is too oversized. But my intension is to document this missing series for isfdb, because it was in the 60s the #2 after Perry Rhodan in Germany.
Gerhard Melchert is credited in the copyright section with the role 'Verlagsleiter' and 'Lektorat' (publishing manager & editorial office). But also "Otto Melchert" is mentioned as "Verleger" (publisher).
You can skip the preview page totally. It exist, yes but it is no big issue to let it unmentioned; it is a weekly-different and short text-sequence "without any titel" with mostly the same graphic template from H. J. Lührs (but yes he is is really credited for that).
Should i submit a new magazine, so that you get more details? For this should i upload first the cover?
Are scans of some topics like "copyright-section", Preview-page", "Technikon" or "Worlds Science News" helpful for you?
last not least the page 'Technikon' is like Perry Rhodan-Lexikon / Perry Rhodan Glossar (more terms belonging to real science than to Ren Dhark universe)

--Norman 18:19, 6 November 2019 (EST)

Norman, you are doing just fine - everyone needs to start somewhere. Neither 'Verlagsleiter', nor 'Lektorat', nor "Verleger" is an editor in my opinion - or we will be adding 25 people in Asimov's as Editors for example. So I would say that it is still a single editor here. Christian is better versed in the German publications so if he disagrees, we can always change it. :)
So "Technikon" appears in (almost) every issue? In this case, it will need to be disambiguated (the name of the issue added to the title). Maybe we should even start a series of them? Do you want to try to do that update? Or do you want me to make it so you see what I mean?
The preview can be skipped but if you believe it to be an integral part, we can keep it. Up to you. We can remove it and note it in the notes only. The list of always excluded items is here. This one falls under included with exception - see the section about "Forthcoming announcements": " Notes about what will be in future issues can be included if they are significant; for example, a single filler line at the bottom of a page doesn't get indexed, but an article, e.g. "In Times to Come", describing future issues, should be indexed..." If it is a complete page, I would call it one of the latter - but you have your eyes on the magazine so you make the decision :) Annie 18:32, 6 November 2019 (EST)
We already have a cover but if you have a better one, feel free to add it. Adding additional pages, unless really needed in order to demonstrate an issue, won't help really - we are not suited for multiple images per publication :) And feel free to add another issue - so we can keep working on the problematic areas. :) Annie 18:32, 6 November 2019 (EST)
The ideas just sound fine. With Gerhard Melchert it seems though that he is the one person held responsible for the magazine. Kurt Bernhardt was also named 'Cheflektor' but he was the person who initiated 'Perry Rhodan', introjected ideas, and had the final say for every issue of that series (similar to Rolf Schmitz for 'Die Terranauten'), so he should be credited here. The existence of a preview can be put into the publication's notes, I'd say. Christian Stonecreek 00:24, 7 November 2019 (EST)
So add him based on the Lektorat credit? I am fine with that if that is how German magazines credited their editors at the time. Maybe we should also add the exact credits up in the notes of the series so it is clear why someone is credited or not. As for the preview - it will come down to how extensive it is -- and this I cannot determine from here. So either way is fine with me. :) Annie 00:32, 7 November 2019 (EST)
Yeah, it seems to have been common usage in Germany: the meaning of 'editor' would have been encompassed by 'Redaktion'/'Redakteur', but this seems to have been used only beginning in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Before that there was either 'Lektor' or 'Herausgeber', but the latter was synonymous with the publisher, at least for the types of publications we talk about. Stonecreek 02:43, 7 November 2019 (EST)
Yeah. 'Redaktion'/'Redakteur' is what I had seen. OK - added back to the magazine and the note on the series was expanded. If someone wants to edit for clarity, please do not hesitate. :) Annie 03:02, 7 November 2019 (EST)
Norman, you will have to be cautious. I have obtained some issues of the magazine, and the credits do change over time: in some of them Gerhard Melchert is in fact only credited as a member of the publishing house ('Verlagsleitung'), and another person is credited as editor (here: 'Lektor'). Well, it was the same with Perry Rhodan.
The only credit I could find for Lührs is at the respective end of the novella ("Illustration"), and I would think that refers to the cover art (and the occasional interior art for the novella). Christian Stonecreek 08:48, 7 November 2019 (EST)
The role of Gerhard Melchert for me is more business orientated and stands for publishing and so on. The concept of the Ren Dhark storyline is fully comeing from Kurt Brand.
Yes, but since this is a magazine (and it is because of the additional material apart from the novellas; if all of the issues would only consist of novellas and maybe some artwork, we would file them as CHAPBOOKs), Melchert and the others are the ones who are credited as being responsible for the magazine as a whole (just as Bernhardt and Schelwokat were in the beginning for Perry Rhodan). We do record what is stated: please take a look at the help pages. It also seems that Kurt Brand is not credited in the respective issues, so he has likely to be added in a second, varianting step (again, as with Perry Rhodan). That is how ISFDB works (for good or for bad). Christian Stonecreek 13:35, 7 November 2019 (EST)
In our existing example #38 Lührs is credited two times on page 65. (first in the copyright section 'Graph. Gestaltung'; second on the bottom at the end of the story 'Illustration:'). But if you feel better, we can change the Pub text to "page 65 is a preview to the next story". The illustration at top of page 3 is also not mentioned and not credited. I prefer to concentrate us on the really important points. --Norman 09:20, 7 November 2019 (EST)

Details and pseudonyms

Details (legal names, birth and death year and so on) are always added to the canonical name record. In the case of Staff Caine, the cannonical is Jeff Mescalero - which already had the death year and the legal name but not the link for the connection or the birth year so I moved both there. Thanks for tracking it down! Annie 11:57, 7 November 2019 (EST)

And about Tensor McDyke - legal names have a specific format (Last, First Middles) so I fixed that and formatted the note. Annie 12:00, 7 November 2019 (EST)
One more thing: any web source can be inserted into the field 'Web Page' for a given author. Thanks, Stonecreek 13:52, 7 November 2019 (EST)
True when the link is about them. When it is piece of an information buried in an article that is not really about them otherwise, the notes is a better place IMO. :) Annie 13:55, 7 November 2019 (EST)

Ren Dhark, #37: Meuterei auf "Wega"

That was very good. A few small things:

  • Do not add a series number. We use the series in a bit of a special way. I removed it and did the second step needed here.
  • "Meinungen + Urteile + Analysen" and "Technikon" are there every issue. So they will need to be named with the issue in brackets so Technikon (Ren Dhark, #37: Meuterei auf "Wega") for example. Do you want me to change these or do you want to try?

The result is here. Annie 15:45, 8 November 2019 (EST)

Fine that my test was not so bad. I'm happy about this, but there are still serval issues indeed.
  • you mean: i shouldn't add the serial number RD1DE37 in the first step. Please describe me the second step.
Nope - the number "37" on the series number :)
  • Yes "Meinungen + Urteile + Analysen" and "Technikon" are in many magazines but not in every. which form of brackets i have to use "(" or "[" "{"? Should i use single-bracket or double-brackets (like in wikis) for that?
Always () for disambiguation. [ are used when you have multiple art pieces from the same artist with the same name in the same piece. { is not used in names. So Technikon (Ren Dhark, #37: Meuterei auf "Wega") for example.
  • In #38 user:stonecreek put the article on p35 & p38 in series "World Science News" and "Die Raumfahrt-Story" plus a sequence 17. in #37 ist should be done in the same way. But how?
Click on the titles. Then edit the titles there (and add the series). Let me know if you want me to give you a direct link for one of them.
  • "Meinungen + Urteile + Analysen", "Technikon" are although series and should be handled as above.
Yes - same answer. But they are also named the same in every issue they are in - so we need to separate them (or you will have a series with 20 essays with the same name) :)
  • In the next magazines there exit other series with different name replaceing some of the actual one. So will understand how it works in isfdb, to do it later without support from. Many, many thank to you and stonecreek helping me. If it is ok for you, i will try to make the modifications by myself. I would be happy for your responses.
--Norman 16:23, 8 November 2019 (EST)
Other answers inline. Go ahead. I am here to moderate and help if needed. And you are welcome - magazines, especially non-English ones, are some of the hardest things around here. Annie 16:31, 8 November 2019 (EST)
PS: The second step on the series is a merge. I will leave it alone on the next issue you add and will let you do it. Will post a step by step in a few minutes. Annie 16:32, 8 November 2019 (EST)
Yeah it works! I think i've got it. Your explanations was very helpful. --Norman 17:15, 8 November 2019 (EST)
Great! :) Let me know if I can assist further. Annie 17:45, 8 November 2019 (EST)

(unindent) One more thing. After you fixed the name of Frank Edwards, the two essays showed up under here. Do you think that this is the same guy? Or is it just the same named one? If it is a different person, I can teach you how to disambiguate authors :) Annie 18:40, 8 November 2019 (EST)

Yes, it is this Frank Edwards . The articles in the magasins are extracts from the book "Flying Saucers - serious business" Copyright: Bulls Pressedienst, Frankfurt am Main (credited in this form on page 69). --Norman 16:00, 9 November 2019 (EST)
I've took a closer look on this subseries. It will be at least 29 essays from this book (from #37 until #65). Perhaps it's better to rename the series "Weltraum ABC" to "Fliegende Untertassen". --Norman 16:37, 9 November 2019 (EST)
As stated above, Kurt Brand is not credited as editor in the issues I have at hand (#38 among them), so it'd be correct to remove him from the entries.
On the background: 'Die große SF-Story von Kurt Brand' is not a credit for an editor, it just phrases that the idea for the series is from Brand. Likewise, K. H. Scheer and Clark Darlton were noted in a similar way on the cover of Perry Rhodan until the end of 1980, a year when neither of them was in any way still involved in the editorial work. Also, for Die Terranauten Rolf W. Liersch and Thomas R. P. Mielke were noted (but not credited) as being responsible for this series, but it turned out that they just developed the basic idea, which was adapted and changed by the editors. Christian Stonecreek 07:55, 9 November 2019 (EST)
Very interesting. So what i have to do? Wait for a result of your researched? --Norman 16:00, 9 November 2019 (EST)
Okay, I'll do the correcting on this point: We do index the credits as stated in a given publication. Any other credit has to be done by using serious sources and varianting to a new title.
From the help pages on entering the author / editor: "The name of the author of the publication. The name should be entered exactly as it is actually given". (So, since Brand is not stated in the publications as editor of the magazine, he can't be stated in the publication entry. (But he can on the title level of a magazine: I have done so for the 1967 title with Melchert credited in the copyright sections.)
And no, you usually don't have to wait for moderators to search for information: you can supply sources on your own. But we had a time when some data was based on hearsay: some of them turned out to be correct after all, but some of them didn't. So we have chosen to use valuable sources only. Christian Stonecreek 00:33, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Ren Dhark, #2: Der Kampf mit den Amphis

I will leave you do the last step here. Here are the step by step: The merging step:

  • Go to the Gerhard Melchert's page (here)
  • Click on "Show All Titles". It opens this
  • Select what you want to merge, do the selections (the date should be ending in 00-00 in this case) and press Merge :) Once approved, the yearly edition for the magazine will have this title inside and it will be properly showing where it belongs.

If the editor page is too big you need to use Advanced Search to get to a page that allows merging. Let me know if you have any questions.Annie 16:04, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Thanks! I've done it hopefully in correct way. Do you see my remarks here for Frank Edwards? --Norman 16:19, 10 November 2019 (EST)
Yep. It was perfect. That is what you need to do for magazines as a second step. Two exceptions:
  • First entry for an year being added - then instead of a merge, you do an EDIT on the EDITOR title and adjust the series, title and date
  • First entry with new editors even if we have an yearly record already - same as above.
The whole idea of this mergung is not to clutter the editor's pages with each issue on its own - thus the yearly records - see Gerhard Melchert. While he does not have that many titles, imagine Dozois's without that grouping and we have some authors that have a lot more editors credits than that (Neil Clarke for example) :) Let me know if you have any questions/concerns.
I adjusted the date as well - when the first record for that year was created, the EDITOR date was not adjusted.
And yes, I saw it - thanks for the answer. If it is the same guy, we are all good. :) Annie 16:26, 10 November 2019 (EST)
One small thing. When you are adding the next issue, do not add a series name or number. In this case it created a series called "Ren Dhark (1. Aufl.) - 1966" which then had to be deleted manually (I just did that). If you insist on adding a series name, use the actual series name (Ren Dhark (1. Aufl.)) and not the EDITOR yearly record name although the merge will assign it so no need to do that at all. :) Annie 16:31, 10 November 2019 (EST)
Again many thanks Annie. I just try this with #3.--Norman 16:36, 10 November 2019 (EST)
Approved. With nothing to fix. Now the post-approval steps :) You may want to go back to #1 though - this needs disambiguation. Annie 16:56, 10 November 2019 (EST)
By the way, if you want, you can add RD1DE03 and so on on the first submission. Either way works. You need to edit to add the cover anyway so it does not really matter but if you are not adding a cover for some reason, keep that in mind. Annie 16:58, 10 November 2019 (EST)
Perfect. Best support! But now I've to finish for today. --Norman 17:08, 10 November 2019 (EST)
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